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Could We Be Wrong About Ivermectin And COVID-19? To either promote the use or drive a stake into the heart of the Ivermectins of the world, we really need a well-designed study
American Council on Science and Health ^
| 07/09/2021
| Chuck Dinerstein, MD, MBA
Posted on 07/09/2021 8:01:21 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
OK, the headline is a bit like clickbait, I do not believe Ivermectin is useful, but I could be wrong. (Did I just say that?) A new study demonstrates how a rush to publish, (and possibly treat) may have resulted in poorly designed studies where a quiet signal is lost in an abundance of noise.
While effective vaccines are an incredibly important part of the COVID-19 solution, none are completely effective, and so we do need anti-virals to reduce the severity of those who become infected. There have been many candidates that have come and gone, most recently Ivermectin as we have written. A new study published in PLOS Medicine looks at the design of these studies and suggests that in the urgency to treat, we did not craft well-designed studies to demonstrate efficacy.
“An antiviral drug would be useful in limiting the severity of disease in people who are not vaccinated or contract a variant not covered by a particular vaccine.” Josh Bloom, Ph.D
The researchers used a computer model of COVID-19 in which varying viral loads in a population would result in differing rates of infectivity – it is a reasonable approximation of real-world COVID-19 experience. They manipulated the viral loads within their “population,” its heterogeneity, and the time that an anti-viral was given – at the first sign of symptoms or perhaps a few days later when you were sufficiently ill to seek medical attention.
The model made use of real data on the changing viral load in 30 patients assessed with PCR daily. Viral loads were “quantified” based on calculating the number of cycles necessary for amplification before the PCR test became positive (fewer cycles, higher loads). The emphasis on viral load was because of the underlying assumption that viral load equates to disease severity. By the way, this is some of the first data I have seen on those dynamics.

As the graphic demonstrates, the viral load increases quite quickly and then “decays” over time. A statistical analysis of the data showed that the viral load’s trajectory, the shape of those curves, were only minimally impacted by the rise. The greatest variation in viral load was in the decay phase, as our immune system neutralized COVID-19. That used that analysis to describe three groups within the population-based upon decay rates of the viral load.
The model found that

Use of an anti-viral after the viral peak was reached, even one 99% effective in inhibiting viral replication, had no impact upon the trajectory – there were diminishing virions to inhibit, too late. - An anti-viral with 50% inhibitory efficacy had no effect because it left too many virions able to multiple – too little and too late.
- An efficacious response to anti-virals was only found when given within 12 hours of the onset of symptoms; waiting 5 days could not alter COVID-19’s trajectory – once again, too late.
The graphic below this paragraph sums the model’s results. An anti-viral will reduce viral shedding, taken as the measure of disease severity, only if given very early, within 12 hours of initial symptoms, with maybe an outer limit of 48 hours. While the analogy is not perfectly matched, it is the same time course we expect with Tami-Flu, given early is reduces the time course of the flu.

When the researchers looked at 110 studies registered with ClincalTrials.gov, only 15% had an inclusion or exclusion criteria related to the onset of symptoms. The average time to initiate an anti-viral was slightly more than seven days, far beyond any efficacy these medications might offer. The plethora of observational studies prompted by the pandemic have a fatal design flaw; they did not control the initiation of treatment. As a result, the number of participants needed to show a statistically significant effect would be about 11,000. If a study were restricted to those treated within 24 hours, the necessary number of participants would decrease to 450.
The actual numbers are not important in moving forward. To either promote the use or drive a stake into the heart of the Ivermectins of the world, we need a well-designed study. The work done in the heat and urgency of the COVID-19 moment will not give us any useful answers no matter how we cast about. Science is self-correcting. We can put the use of the anti-virals to a better test if we take a few moments to design better studies. Is it time for an RCT for Ivermectin?
Source Detection of significant antiviral drug effects on COVID-19 with reasonable sample sizes in randomized controlled trials: A modeling study combined with clinical data PLOS Medicine DOI: 10.1371/journal.pmed.1003660

By Chuck Dinerstein, MD, MBA
Director of Medicine
Dr. Charles Dinerstein, M.D., MBA, FACS is Director of Medicine at the American Council on Science and Health. He has over 25 years of experience as a vascular surgeon.
TOPICS: Health/Medicine; Science; Society
KEYWORDS: covid19; dinerstein; ivermectin; ivermectinanalysis; ivermectinstudy; study
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To: Mrs. Don-o; tellw; Huskrrrr; Jane Long; Freedom'sWorthIt; Freedom56v2; BDParrish; Phx_RC; cba123; ..
To: SeekAndFind
So, the drugs must be given basically as soon as symptoms appear, or they have no effect
Or am I reading that wrong?
3
posted on
07/09/2021 8:09:04 AM PDT
by
Fai Mao
(I don't think we have enough telephone poles.)
To: SeekAndFind
The model found that:
• An efficacious response to anti-virals was only found when given within 12 hours of the onset of symptoms; Well, how do you like that? Nobody ever knew that the disease had to be treated early, did they? (/s)
Don't these people EVER read prior research and analysis?
4
posted on
07/09/2021 8:10:21 AM PDT
by
ProtectOurFreedom
(“I’m not a conspiracy theorist....but, I don’t believe in coincidences, either.” ~ Steve Bannon)
To: SeekAndFind
"Scientists" insist on double-blind studies as the only benchmark for off-label uses for various drugs. Dr. Pierre Kory testified before the US Senate that, in his use, Ivermectin is 100% effective. Extensive successful use is just as valid as the ubiquitous double-blind study.
Dr. Pierre Kory's testimony before the US Senate re: Ivermectin
5
posted on
07/09/2021 8:11:47 AM PDT
by
Dr. Thorne
(The Media is the Virus.)
To: SeekAndFind
Ivermectin works. It works best at early stage. It worked for my 95 year old father back in December. He was sick and diagnosed with Covid. 1 tab 3 times per day for 3 days, with heavy D-3, Zinc and an antibiotic. He did a dramatic turn around. No symptoms by day 4.
He did die in March, of heart failure. He had a pacemaker (5 years), had quadruple bypass surgery long ago. He did not die from COVID.
HCQ also was helpful on some people.
The negative nattering nabob experts are responding to pressure from the top. It is not about public health, this pandemic is about Control and subjection.
6
posted on
07/09/2021 8:12:28 AM PDT
by
Texas Fossil
((Texas is not where you were born, but a Free State of Heart, Mind & Attitude!))
To: Fai Mao
RE: So, the drugs must be given basically as soon as symptoms appear, or they have no effect
Every single successful doctor who administers Hydroxychloroquine or Ivermectin for Covid-19 will tell you that EARLY treatment ( within 6 days of the appearance of symptoms or positive test ) is the key to rapid recovery.
Everyone, from Dr. Zelenko to Dr. Kory will tell you that.
Most of the so-called FAILED studies administer these drugs when the patient is already hospitalized. Yet, they will still work, but the results are MIXED.
It’s like applying cancer drugs or surgery to a cancer patient who is already in stage 4. The chances of recovery decreases substantially compared to doing these in stage 1 or 2.
To: ProtectOurFreedom
“The model found that:
• An efficacious response to anti-virals was only found when given within 12 hours of the onset of symptoms; “
I say BS.
This is a long way from realistic portrayal of the effects of Ivermectin.
My 95 year old father was diagnosed with Covid 7 days after we took him to the doctor. (long term test positive)
He took Ivermectin, D-3, Zinc and an antibiotic. By day 4 there were no symptoms.
“The Model found” implies computer model. This is the real world. The rest is BS.
8
posted on
07/09/2021 8:17:42 AM PDT
by
Texas Fossil
((Texas is not where you were born, but a Free State of Heart, Mind & Attitude!))
To: SeekAndFind
Answer me this, was the hostility to Ivermectin and other existing drugs simply because they would have undermined and prevented the Emergency Use Authorization (EUA)? I am increasingly concluding this was more important reason for the hostility, secondly, because Trump endorsed it.
9
posted on
07/09/2021 8:20:40 AM PDT
by
Reno89519
(Buy American, Hire American! End All Worker Visa Programs. Replace Visa Workers w/ American Wo)
To: SeekAndFind
10
posted on
07/09/2021 8:24:08 AM PDT
by
silverleaf
(In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act)
To: Texas Fossil
“The negative nattering nabob experts are responding to pressure from the top. It is not about public health, this pandemic is about Control and subjection.”
I really don’t understand how everyone doesn’t realize this by now. I can’t wrap my head around it. I won’t believe that people are willfully this stupid, so it’s either a very small percent of complete idiots, or they’re compliant and part of it at this point. I don’t see any other possibilities.
11
posted on
07/09/2021 8:26:31 AM PDT
by
Bulwyf
To: Texas Fossil
The EVMS MATH+ and I-MASK+ protocols (Drs Kory and Marik) call for early treatment with Ivermectin and other therapeutics, but they don’t define what “early” means in hours or days.
They provide a pre-exposure prophylaxis regimen, a post-exposure prophylaxis regimen and an early outpatient regimen. As you say, their protocols are efficacious over longer periods than the 12 hours mentioned in this paper.
I’m glad your dad was successfully treated; that’s great news. Did his doctor recommend that treatment? Or was it you pushing the doctor to prescribe it? Or did you administer it on your own?
12
posted on
07/09/2021 8:28:18 AM PDT
by
ProtectOurFreedom
(“I’m not a conspiracy theorist....but, I don’t believe in coincidences, either.” ~ Steve Bannon)
To: SeekAndFind
IMHO......
Very sad that honest information was kept hidden from the world by the WHO, CDC and our government agencies, ...AND THE MSM!
Facts? Preventative supplements were out there, Vitamin D3, Vit. C, Zinc and Magnesium were out there for about 10 cents per day dosage. Hundreds of scientific reports verifying the positive and preventative effects were out there from medical experts and being reported.
Cures for the sickness were out there, also from medical experts. Ivermectin, Hydroxychloroquine and Remdesivir. Given when diagnosed with the Covid it is generally gone within a week.
To: silverleaf
RE: If he got covid and after 7 days of the current treatment offered by the establishment ( go home, take tylenol, go to hospital if you cant breathe)
That seems to be the Standard response from doctors if you are diagnosed with Covid - Take Tylenol and use standard flu treatment and cross your fingers that your immune system will take care of the rest.
In over 99% of the cases, such an advise actually works... the patient ultimately recovers. It is the tiny unfortunate minority we have to be concerned with ( that still amounts to tens of thousands of patients ).
And *THAT* is the problem as well — if a person takes Ivermectin or Hydroxycholorquine and recovers, most skeptical doctors will insist that the patient would have recovered anyway REGARDLESS of whether he took Ivermectin or HCQ or not.
I’ve spoke to too many such doctors, so I know their arguments.
To: Texas Fossil
My 91-year-old mother in hospice care for lung failure caught it last March. Before I could find a doctor willing to prescribe hydroxychloroquine, she was over it (two days).
Must have been the Tylenol.
Condolences on the passing of your father.
15
posted on
07/09/2021 8:35:55 AM PDT
by
phoneman08
(qwiyrqweopigradfdz oncm,.dadfjl,dz )
To: Texas Fossil
You wrote "“The Model found” implies computer model."
The excerpt and article clearly state this work is computer modeling of the viral loads in real patients:
"The researchers used a computer model of COVID-19 in which varying viral loads in a population would result in differing rates of infectivity...The model made use of real data on the changing viral load in 30 patients assessed with PCR daily."
The author does raise an interesting point, though, about the many studies of IVM:
"The plethora of observational studies prompted by the pandemic have a fatal design flaw; they did not control the initiation of treatment. As a result, the number of participants needed to show a statistically significant effect would be about 11,000. If a study were restricted to those treated within 24 hours, the necessary number of participants would decrease to 450."
I would put controlling the initiation of treatment into the "nice to have" category. There is plenty of real world evidence (RC Trials and Observational Studies) that show it works.
16
posted on
07/09/2021 8:38:22 AM PDT
by
ProtectOurFreedom
(“I’m not a conspiracy theorist....but, I don’t believe in coincidences, either.” ~ Steve Bannon)
To: SeekAndFind
Well sure doc, but an “honest” trial/test will never be carried out.
And even if the results show that it works, the garden gnome will blather on about the “lack of efficacy” and the drones in the media and the public will shut all communications down.
These are the same people who totally blew off the statements of PRACTICING doctors about the improvements that their patients were experiencing with HCQ, not being cured, just helping with the symptoms, to follow lockstep with a medical bureaucrat who has no first hand experience with this issue.
17
posted on
07/09/2021 8:45:14 AM PDT
by
TexasM1A
To: SeekAndFind
This writer is a buffoon and probably a Fauci groupie.
Ivermectin works as preventive and at every stage of COVID.
18
posted on
07/09/2021 8:53:33 AM PDT
by
UnwashedPeasant
(Trump is the last legally elected U.S. President.)
To: SeekAndFind
then take as a prophylactic
19
posted on
07/09/2021 8:55:25 AM PDT
by
joshua c
(Dump the LEFT. Cable tv, Big tech, national name brands)
To: SeekAndFind
RE: So, the drugs must be given basically as soon as symptoms appear, or they have no effectThat is true for HCQ+Zn. Ivermectin works at all stages.
20
posted on
07/09/2021 8:55:35 AM PDT
by
UnwashedPeasant
(Trump is the last legally elected U.S. President.)
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