145th Anniversary of the Battle of the Little Bighorn (History Nerd Thread)

The Roman War Criminal ^ | 6/25/21 | Roman War Criminal

[Roman_War_Criminal]

Today marks the 145th anniversary of Custer's infamous "Last Stand". He always had his detractors and worshippers. Especially among his contemporaries. Major James Brisbin (2nd US Cav) is quoted as saying he was an "insufferable ass".

While we all know the woke folks will refer to him as either a "colonizer", "genocidal maniac", or worse - a "racist", his portrayal and legend is a story that will probably not die in this century or even the next.

I wanted this thread to be about him, and his massively compounded errors that led to his death and the annihilation of his battalion on June 25th, 1876.

Sure books have been written by the "experts" who swear that his movements were intentional on the ridge overlooking the LBR and beyond to the north and west.

I know a lot of FReepers are history geeks like me. So I'm going to throw out some bullets and let this thread fly. And for those who might have questions about locations or abbreviations I apologize in advance - I've just read too many books on the subject and it'll take too much space to explain. We can discuss it in the thread.

*White Cow Bull's testimony that he shot an officer in buckskin riding a sorrel horse with 4 white stockings barking orders at the Medicine Tail Coulee and dropping him. From there the Grey Horse Company backtracked up the ridge and it was a defensive slaughter from there

*Archaeological evidence of heavy skirmishing on the ridge where the current cemetery is located. Was this a retreat or where they still trying to find an alternate crossing?

*Did Company C really try to hold a line facing NW where the current museum is and eventually got routed and lost all of their horses? No markers are found there.

*Captain Myles Keough was probably the biggest legend IMHO on the Army's side. Testimony states he was shot through his knee and fell off his horse and the soldiers of Company I surrounded him immediately getting surrounded and wiped out with a handful of survivors running for dear life towards the NW where Co's C & F were. Keough was the only one not mutilated.

*Theodore Goldin's testimony. Always a controversial piece. Reliable? Or tall tale?

*Curley's Testimony. Reliable or tall tale?

*Benteen. Had he followed orders I believe he would have been ambushed upon approaching the ravine and ridge area where Co's I and L fell. Should he have followed orders? Or did he do the right thing? Also, would Reno have survived without him? My guess is probably not.

*Reno's Valley Fight. It's been stated by at least two witnesses on the Army's side and several Natives that had he kept his battalion in the timber they could have held out indefinitely. The fires the Indians were attempting to start to burn the brush couldn't start due to recent rains. Should he have stayed in the timber? Should he have dismounted and fired volleys? The retreat was a complete disaster and massive unnecessary loss of men.

*Finally Custer. *Should he have followed his initial plan and rested his exhausted troops and attack at dawn on the 26th?

*Should he have split his forces into three? Maybe two?

*Reconnaissance - there was none and the results showed.

*He clearly didn't trust his scouts or officers.

*He took with him his loyal officers and left those who hated him for the most part to maneuver the primary striking force of his attack. Perhaps Keogh or TW Custer leading the charge would have produced a bit more time for him to strike his hammer blow?

*His armaments were single shot springfield rifles. Would Spencers have produced a better defense?

Native Americans *Let's discuss how many warriors there really may have been?

*Why didn't they run here and at the Rosebud? The coordination was extraordinary and unique for them in these two battles.

*Why did they break their camp apart after this battle and not face Terry/Gibbon? They probably could have wiped them out as well if they struck them with the ferocity that they did Crook and Custer.

Some Relative Unknowns or little mentioned in the battle who I really like:

Isaiah Dorman Mitch Bouyer Charles Windolph Rain in the Face (claims he killed TW Custer) Two Moon (Later became a Christian) Lt. Harrington (Body never found)

MYSTERIES:

Did Frank Finkel actually survive and live to tell about it? Is there any truth to the story of the 7th Cavalry dead horse found near the Tongue a few months later?

Did the 2nd Cavalry really see "smoke" at about 2pm on the 25th from 40 miles away from the battlefield as has been mentioned in a few books? Hard to believe that.

Please feel free to add to this list and lets discuss it in more detail. I've probably read about 30 books about the battle and I always learn something new. There's also a good bit of BS out there as well.

Appreciate you fellow LBH history nerds!

[Roman_War_Criminal]

I agree, I am not convinced that happened either. But it adds to the legends and mysteries of the Battle.
For a lot of people, it’s the only reason and rationale for how his battalion got destroyed.

[Flag_This]

I thought you might find this interesting. This video is only tangentially related to Custer, but it discusses why J.E.B. Stuart was late to arrive at Gettysburg. He talks about how important interpersonal relationships are in an organization, and how badly things can go when leadership doesn't take those relationships into account:
Battle of Gettysburg: why J.E.B. Stuart ends up in Carlisle

[alternatives?]

Yes go. It is small enough to visualize everything that happened that day.

[Nailbiter]

later perusal

[alternatives?]

Yeah. My Dad would have been 99 earlier this year as well.

For scale, In 1987, the Pearl Harbor attack was 46 years old.

1975 is 46 years ago.

[Beowulf9]

Well, if the buttons were already on the sleeves in the civil war era that answers my question.

Thank you :)

[alternatives?]

Donovan was very good.

I bought it when it first came out. 2008. That is recent for most of us. :)

[Roman_War_Criminal]

That must have been a massively interesting experience to ride on horseback along MTC and the ridges. I’m jealous!

I believe your Custer battlefield analysis probably fits pretty closely to the modern interpretation of what happened. This can be backed up with multiple eyewitness testimony as well from the Indian survivors.

A good intentional holding force to keep the Indians from Reno’s fight at bay (Co’s C, I, L) while Custer with E & F moving to look for a good ford to cross and capture the women and children.

The debate as to when the holding companies fell apart is either with Calhoun changing his company’s direction of fire or with the failed Company C charge to scatter Indians gathering to the south.

Company C got way too close to the Indians IMHO based on my reading and Calhoun probably should never have changed the direction of their fire (but what choice did they have?).

I totally agree with you that Keogh didn’t have a prayer in the world to form a defense. Seems like the Indians rode through them and went back and forth until they scattered or killed them all. Whoever survived ran towards Last Stand Hill and they were horseless.

For the record, I wouldn’t suggest Custer was an idiot with tactics - but he always failed to recon his battles, and with Indians he never trusted his scouts. Here the terrain and heat wore out his already exhausted & thirsty troopers. There was no way his 210 man force could hope to capture even 20 non-combatants and then try to put up a fight against the 2,000 - 2,500 warriors that were there.

*He believed the Indians would “run”. They didn’t.
*He thought they numbered less than 1,000. Wrong.
*He woefully believed that officers who loathed him would be supportive and obedient to his orders.
*Reconnaissance. Reconnaissance. Foreign words apparently.
*Single-shot rifles and limited ammo
*Horses scattered when dismounted for a skirmish line
*The terrain favored the attackers (Indians)

He and his troops were outgunned and shot to pieces.

Also, not sure if this has been mentioned but there were reports of White Renegades or Trappers who fought with the Indians that day. These guys probably married into the Sioux or Cheyenne tribes. One was a sniper who killed several troops who were surrounded on Reno Hill. He was supposedly shooting from “Sharpshooter Ridge”. Somebody shot and killed him from the lower position on Reno Hill.

Thanks for the recommendation on the book, I’ll look at it as I’m always willing to add to the collection.

[Roman_War_Criminal]

Bookmark

Thank you!

[Pikachu_Dad]

He lost me in the first minute when

1: he admitted to being an advocate of the democrats cause (“when I get animated and say ‘we’ I mean confederates (aka democrats))

2: he claimed that the Southern cause was for ‘Independence’.

Next.

E
Let’s see what else he lies about.

[Roman_War_Criminal]

I agree, he’s great in interviews and his books reflect his balanced perspective.

2008 is very very recent for this topic. LOL!

Of course if you ever read the stuff from the 1870’s and 1880’s on the topic, you’d think that Custer was ‘god’ and that he had the worst luck in his defeat that day.

The LBH is compared to 9/11 and in a lot of ways I agree with that comparison. The entire country freaked out with that defeat and it really made the Army take the Indians seriously.

[dsc]

Thanks very much to all of you. It’s like finding a full stocking at Christmas.

Have I got these right?

Indian Fights and Fighters, Cyrus Brady
The Godfrey Diary of the Battle of the Little Bighorn, Lieutenant Edward Settle Godfrey
Keep The Last Bullet for Yourself, Thomas Marquis
Wooden Leg—A Warrior Who Fought Custer, Thomas Marquis
A Terrible Glory, James Donovan
The ABC’s of Custer’s Last Stand, Arthur C. Unger
Archaeology, History, and Custer’s Last Battle, Richard Allan Fox, Jr.

Also, I ran across this one while I was poking around. Looks promising.

The Blood of Heroes: The 13-Day Struggle for the Alamo, James Donovan

[Inyo-Mono]

Thanks for that link. Fascinating reading.

[Pikachu_Dad]

Interesting - he claims that Jen Stuart’s rode around the Union army leaves Lee ‘blind’

But now he is admitting the Stuart only took 3 of the 7 units that he commanded. Lee had 4 units of Cavalry at his disposal !

Lol

[Roman_War_Criminal]

Yes very good list there and may I add two more?

Check out Lawrence Frost with these two if you wish to get a more intimate portrait of who the man Custer was:

The Custer Album (tons of pics you’ll never find on the internet)
Custer’s 7th Cav and the Campaign of 1873 (very hard to find)

You’ll get an idea of his tactics and why he thought the way he did in the 2nd one - it forshadows his movements and tactics for LBH.

[Roman_War_Criminal]

👍

[dsc]

Thanks once more. Can’t wait to see those pictures.

[Roman_War_Criminal]

Mr. Frost was a family friend of the Custer’s.
He knew a lot more about the man than we could ever dream of.

You can see his books reflect the topic.
I respect his opinion, but I don’t necessarily believe his battlefield narrative completely.

[Mr Rogers]

Just ordered a copy of A Terrible Glory. Sounds good.

[ought-six]

That second map is wrong on several counts. It says “French” between the Custer and Calhoun positions (the latter of which is also wrong): Captain French was with Reno in the charge in the valley, and didn’t even get to the Custer field until three days after the Custer fight, when he and other 7th Cavalry troops were part of the burial parties. That map also shows Keogh as being south of Calhoun, when the opposite is true. Calhoun’s L Troop was part of the Keogh battalion, or “right” wing, and was deployed as skirmishers while Keogh’s Troop I and Harrington’s Troop C were held in reserve in the swale to the north of Calhoun. The map also shows the Custer force heading north as one complete force with no separation down Medicine Tail Coulee.