Posted on 06/25/2021 1:45:06 PM PDT by Roman_War_Criminal
Today marks the 145th anniversary of Custer's infamous "Last Stand". He always had his detractors and worshippers. Especially among his contemporaries. Major James Brisbin (2nd US Cav) is quoted as saying he was an "insufferable ass".
While we all know the woke folks will refer to him as either a "colonizer", "genocidal maniac", or worse - a "racist", his portrayal and legend is a story that will probably not die in this century or even the next.
I wanted this thread to be about him, and his massively compounded errors that led to his death and the annihilation of his battalion on June 25th, 1876.
Sure books have been written by the "experts" who swear that his movements were intentional on the ridge overlooking the LBR and beyond to the north and west.
I know a lot of FReepers are history geeks like me. So I'm going to throw out some bullets and let this thread fly. And for those who might have questions about locations or abbreviations I apologize in advance - I've just read too many books on the subject and it'll take too much space to explain. We can discuss it in the thread.
*White Cow Bull's testimony that he shot an officer in buckskin riding a sorrel horse with 4 white stockings barking orders at the Medicine Tail Coulee and dropping him. From there the Grey Horse Company backtracked up the ridge and it was a defensive slaughter from there
*Archaeological evidence of heavy skirmishing on the ridge where the current cemetery is located. Was this a retreat or where they still trying to find an alternate crossing?
*Did Company C really try to hold a line facing NW where the current museum is and eventually got routed and lost all of their horses? No markers are found there.
*Captain Myles Keough was probably the biggest legend IMHO on the Army's side. Testimony states he was shot through his knee and fell off his horse and the soldiers of Company I surrounded him immediately getting surrounded and wiped out with a handful of survivors running for dear life towards the NW where Co's C & F were. Keough was the only one not mutilated.
*Theodore Goldin's testimony. Always a controversial piece. Reliable? Or tall tale?
*Curley's Testimony. Reliable or tall tale?
*Benteen. Had he followed orders I believe he would have been ambushed upon approaching the ravine and ridge area where Co's I and L fell. Should he have followed orders? Or did he do the right thing? Also, would Reno have survived without him? My guess is probably not.
*Reno's Valley Fight. It's been stated by at least two witnesses on the Army's side and several Natives that had he kept his battalion in the timber they could have held out indefinitely. The fires the Indians were attempting to start to burn the brush couldn't start due to recent rains. Should he have stayed in the timber? Should he have dismounted and fired volleys? The retreat was a complete disaster and massive unnecessary loss of men.
*Finally Custer. *Should he have followed his initial plan and rested his exhausted troops and attack at dawn on the 26th?
*Should he have split his forces into three? Maybe two?
*Reconnaissance - there was none and the results showed.
*He clearly didn't trust his scouts or officers.
*He took with him his loyal officers and left those who hated him for the most part to maneuver the primary striking force of his attack. Perhaps Keogh or TW Custer leading the charge would have produced a bit more time for him to strike his hammer blow?
*His armaments were single shot springfield rifles. Would Spencers have produced a better defense?
Native Americans *Let's discuss how many warriors there really may have been?
*Why didn't they run here and at the Rosebud? The coordination was extraordinary and unique for them in these two battles.
*Why did they break their camp apart after this battle and not face Terry/Gibbon? They probably could have wiped them out as well if they struck them with the ferocity that they did Crook and Custer.
Some Relative Unknowns or little mentioned in the battle who I really like:
Isaiah Dorman Mitch Bouyer Charles Windolph Rain in the Face (claims he killed TW Custer) Two Moon (Later became a Christian) Lt. Harrington (Body never found)
MYSTERIES:
Did Frank Finkel actually survive and live to tell about it? Is there any truth to the story of the 7th Cavalry dead horse found near the Tongue a few months later?
Did the 2nd Cavalry really see "smoke" at about 2pm on the 25th from 40 miles away from the battlefield as has been mentioned in a few books? Hard to believe that.
Please feel free to add to this list and lets discuss it in more detail. I've probably read about 30 books about the battle and I always learn something new. There's also a good bit of BS out there as well.
Appreciate you fellow LBH history nerds!
The Gatling Guns presence or absence on the battlefield will long endure as a controversy. Having read dozens of books, including reprints of participants involved (via inexpensive electronic editions), Custer’s decision to leave them behind because they would have slowed his column makes sense to me. However, if they slowed the column, the battle may have happened a day or two later, if at all. Also, Custer’s tactics were offensive in nature, while the Gatling’s power was in the defense. The only position where, IMO, the Gatlings would have been useful was in the Reno/Benteen defensive position established after Reno retreated back to the bluff position where the pack animals were located. Visiting and walking the battlefield is on my ‘bucket list.’
I found out how all this detailed information was obtained some years back.
The battlefield was swept by a grass fire and a member of the fire crew told me that the cases and other items were all exposed after the heavy grass was burnt away to bare ground.
The Archaeologists then walked the battlefield collecting the items and their detailed location.
Firefighter told me that there was a lot of stuff!
I took my daughter there when she was thirteen.
Note to any Dads out there: Your average 13 year old daughter is not the least bit interested in “cowboys and Indians.” I can only imagine the horror of going there with a woke 13 year old girl.
We laugh about it now, but it was not a good day for us.
I read CUSTER’S FALL about fifty five years ago and this got my interest in it.
Twas there in 2013, and went by in 2015.
Now here is a little something I came up on about fifty years ago...
There is a name on that monument of a man who was not killed there. He died in 1944, after being an Oklahoma sheriff.
On a visit, he was shocked to see his name there. He was originally transferred to the 7th, but suddenly was transferred to the 5th Cavalry.
He protested to the Dept of War, and they checked into it and said that since he had originally been listed as KIA at Little Big Horn, he would have to stay killed at LBH.
Wonder how many can name him.
I also like to point out that this battle took place in Pro-US CROW territory. It can be classed as a massive invasion by their enemies the Sioux, Cheyenne and Arapaho.
He did a reasonable job. Didn’t recce? If he had, the enemy would probably flee - except THIS time, the enemy had the numbers. But many cavalry knew the frustration of spending months chasing and never catching up with the Indians. His job was to ENGAGE, not to LIVE FOREVER.
Split his forces? Not a bad option. It can work very well and can work against a bigger enemy. But Reno and Benteen lacked the aggression needed.
Biggest problem was BAD LUCK. This time, almost uniquely in the Indian Wars, they caught up with a BIG group that was ready and willing to fight.
“Visiting and walking the battlefield is on my ‘bucket list.”
You need to go. It’s truly an amazing place - pretty eerie too near the Last Stand Hill.
If you ever go, I highly recommend going to Pompeys Pillar. It’s not far from there and it’s a big massive rock where Lewis & Clark left graffiti on their cross-continental trek in 1806.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pompeys_Pillar_National_Monument
“IIRC, battlefield archeologists found many Springfield cartridges with large scratches on them.”
I have read that those rifles jammed when they heated up, and that Custer screwed up by not having his men thoroughly test-fire them.
His name wouldn’t happen to be Christopher Madsen?
The troops had ammo in copper cases, which stuck after a few shots. The officers bought their own Brass cased ammo.
In the movie, THE PLAINSMAN with Gary Cooper, three is a scene of an Indian attack. From cover, notice how Buffalo Bill Cody uses his knife to extract a stuck cartridge.
“I also like to point out that this battle took place in Pro-US CROW territory. It can be classed as a massive invasion by their enemies the Sioux, Cheyenne and Arapaho.”
A lot of people don’t realize that.
The Sioux literally invaded the Black Hills too, that was not their “homeland”. I believe their homeland was more Minnesota than anything west of it.
Cheyenne and Arapaho were more traditionally south of Montana and in the plains IIRC.
Frankly, if it had gone that way he would have stood an excellent chance of succeeding Grant running on the Democrat ticket. The eventual nominee, Tilden, won the popular vote and only lost (by one EC vote) after all 20 disputed Electoral College votes were given to Hayes. The deal being a guarantee by Republicans to withdraw Federal forces from the former Confederacy, end Reconstruction, and let the Democrats resume unbridled control .
If all this was all in fact his plan and intention, my only sorrow is for the other men he misled to their deaths. By this account he was in a hurry for glory and the White House, and they paid the price for his hubris, ambition, and gross incompetence.
Yeah, but half of his class had resigned and left to join the confederacy. So he might have done a little better had they stuck around.
Bingo! Christopher Madsen is it.
I’m giving you credit for knowing that.
You told me in a post about 3 years ago that interesting factoid. I have not forgotten it and even read up about Madsen some.
I wonder if he took part in the 5th’s Battle on Warbonnett Creek on July 17, 1876? Where Cody killed Yellow Hand supposedly.
It is certainly emotional standing on the hill and
listening to the wind go through the grass.
The shouts of men and the sound of guns and horses seem to
echo in your ears.
I would love to go there again.
The thing I find most interesting about Custer is that during the Civil War his men seemed to love him and would follow him anywhere, but after that war ended, and he went out west, he became widely hated by his troops. At West Point he was a prankster and always skating within a demerit or two of being dismissed, but after the war he became a different person.
I had no idea the Battle of the Little Big Horn took place on my Dad’s birthday. If still living, he would be 99 years old today. So the battle took place 46 years before he was born. How the world has changed in that time!!!
I plan on going next year unless God forbid we’re locked down again.
My biggest regret is not walking from the hill to the Reno-Benteen site. It’s a hike for sure. I want to say 3 or 4 miles, but I could be wrong - it’s worth it though.
I remember standing on top of Weir Point wondering what they really saw at about 5pm. It’s really hard to see the Custer battlefield from there. At least with my older eyes.
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