Posted on 01/29/2021 7:38:15 AM PST by daniel1212
Dennis Weidner,
There is no doubt that it is was the Red Army that tore the heart out of the German Army. Vladimir accurately quotes PM Churchill on this. President Roosevelt said basically the same thing. And there is no Western historian of any importance who disagrees. Only people who get their history from Hollywood disagree. Unfortunately this seems to be the case of many Russians who have in their head that Americans question the importance of the Red Army. It simply is not true.
Several points need to be made in connection with this topic.
First the Soviet Union was not an Allied power. It was a co-belligerent. In fact for nearly the first two years of the War, the Soviets were allied with the NAZIS, both launching the War by invading Poland.. The Soviets conducted terrible atrocities in Poland and the other countries they invaded (1939–41). The Soviet NKVD behaved much like the NAZI SS. And the Soviets supported the NAZI war machine by shipping vast quantities of oil, strategic metals, and grain to NAZI Germany.
The Soviets were not only a NAZI ally, the two totalitarian giants JOINTLY invaded and partitioned Europe between themselves. They then BOTH committed terrible atrocities and bickered over the boundaries (1939–41). In addition, Stalin actually wanted to join the Axis. Only Hitler’s objections prevented this.
It is true that the Red Army had to fight the Germans virtually alone for nearly 2 years on the Eastern Front. But part of the reason for this was that the Soviets aid the Germans by the huge deliveries of material to defeat the French and drive Britain from the Continent. Having to fight alone was the Soviets own doing.
Now while it is certainly true that it was the Red Army that tore the heart out of the German Army, it is also true that the Western Allies played an important role in the defeat of NAZI Germany. Here it is important to note that it is not Americans denying the importance of the Red Army, it is Russians who deny the importance of the Western Allies.
In that connection, here is a partial list of what the Western Allies did:
1. American diplomacy so infuriated the Japanese and threatened their main interest (China) that they shifted their military plans from a Strike North to a Strike South strategy. Of course the battles with the Red Army (July 1939) were also a factor.) World War II Japan road to World War II
2. The RAF severely damaged the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain. The Luftwaffe was weaker in 1941 than when it played a key role in the German Western Offensive (1940). As a result the Wehrmacht had less air support than it had in the West. This is often ignored in Barbarossa assessments. Without the Battle of Britain, Hitler would have had an air force twice as large as he had in 1940. World War II air campaign -- Battle of Britain
3. British activity in the Mediterranean resulted in Hitler's Balkan adventure, delaying Barbarossa. The delay made a huge difference. If the Wehrmacht had had only a few more weeks of good weather, they may well have succeeded in destroying the Red Army. World War II Axis invasion of the Balkans
4. Another reason that Barbarossa failed is that Stalin was able to move sizable Siberian forces west and mount an offensive before Moscow (December 1941). The reason he was able to do this is American pressure on Japan forced them together end their war in China or attack the United states. They chose war with America. World War II Pacific naval campaigns -- Pearl Harbor
5. Although the Western Allies were not on the Continent in 1941, Britain being in the war, forced the Germans to maintain a substantial force in France. The Germany could not throw their full weight against the Soviets. World War II German occupation of France
6. American Lend Lease had an enormous impact on the Soviet war effort. Perhaps the most important was American trucks. Without the mobility provided by the trucks, the great Soviet victories of 1943-44 would not have been possible. And the without Lend Lease food, many Soviets would have starved. The Soviets may have prevailed without American help, but it would have taken them longer and it would have been at far greater cost. World War II campaigns -- Arsenal of Democracy Lend Lease countries Soviet Union
7. The Allied strategic bombing campaign had a massive impact on the German war economy. Without the air campaign, the Red Army would have faced better equipped German and other Axis troops. In addition, the Luftwaffe had to be pulled back to protect German cities. and huge numbers of artillery pieces had to be pointed up around German cities rather than deployed in the East. The quantity of ammunition not available in the East was massive. Second World War II Allied strategic bombing campaign
8. While the Heer was broken in the East. The Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine were both broken in the West. In terms of manpower, the German losses were highest in the East. But i terms of industrial production, a very substantial part of the NAZI war economy was devoted to the Luftwaffe and Keiegsmarine (especially efforts to build improved U-boats in 1944 1nd 45). And the effort to build secret weapons like the V-weapons was primarily aimed at the West. While German manpower was primarily committed to the East, the German war economy was not committed to the East to the same degree. World War II naval campaigns -- the Atlantic phase 2
9. German soldiers were primarily deployed in the East, but it is important to note that German industry, science, and technology was not comparably oriented. The fact that Britain remained in the War caused the Germans to significantly increase priorities to the Navy, especially U-boats. This diverted huge quantities of steel from tank and artillery production. The air war was even more important. Not only did the Strategic Bombing Campaign force the Germans to deploy much of their artillery and ammunition around German cities, but aircraft production was a sizeable component of German industry. Running the numerous, about half if German industry, perhaps more than, half was supporting the war in the West, not the War in the East. Germany World War II -- German industry
10. The British at first and then aided by America blockaded German/Axis ports. This meant the Germans were unable to import needed raw materials except from Sweden and a few other neutrals bordering on NAZI controlled territory. World War II -- economics raw materials food metals
11. While Hitler was able to deploy most of his land forces in the East. This changed after Alamein and Torch. Thus in 1943-45, he was forced to deploy substantial forces in the West, relieving pressure in the Red Army. World War II Western Desert : Afrika Koprs
12. The Western Allies passed on insights gained through Ultra to the Soviets. The Soviets passed on nothing learned from their intelligence efforts to the Allies. World War II -- cracking the German Enigma code systems Ultra
13. Japan was unable to threaten the Soviets from the east even after failing to aid Barbarossa. After Midway, the Japanese were so heavily engaged by America that they no longer had the strength to attack the Soviet Union. https://www.histclo.com/essay/war/ww2/sea/pac/ncp-mid.html
14. The American Arsenal of Democracy overpowered the Axis. America had the largest economy in the world and after Pearl Harbor it was mobilized for war. And the Axis economies could simply not keep match it. World War II campaigns -- arsenal of democracy
15. Financing war is an often overlooked topic, in part because it does not interest military historians. An here again America led the way. No country in history had ever spent so much money on a war. And no country had ever ended a war with such a massive debt. World War II -- United States financing the war borrowing
Hitler had to attack when he did, Stalin was only getting stronger by the day, and many think Stalin would have attacked by 1943.
I would have gone straight to Moscow, and tried to get the Soviet government to collapse. Had Stalin been taken out, there might have even been a civil war between the Soviets, then the Germans could have divided and conquered.
6. American Lend Lease had an enormous impact on the Soviet war effort.
I was about to post the same. Without the U.S. industrial might at the time the Soviets would be speaking German now. The U.S. won the World Wars I and II, now we’re losing World War III
[Japans strike south focus is interesting, and likely deliberate on the part of FDR to draw Japan and US into a war (which we know he wanted). By getting Japan to focus on the pacific, Stalin was free to shift the Siberian divisions to the defense of Moscow, and they arrived in the barest nick of time to save the city.]
Re point 1 - if Japan had merely bided its time and taken the better part of a century to pacify China (i.e. slaughter irreconcilables and mollify assimilables), Japan would today include all of China. That it chose to do otherwise was unwise and perhaps an indication that it was ruled by degenerate gamblers.
Re point 2 - Japan had good reason to avoid triggering a Soviet collapse. If Germany overran Russia, what was to prevent it from overrunning Japan and its possessions?
And Stain is much to be blamed for that for ruthlessly executing generals etc. and not being prepared for war with Germany, and then blaming his leaders for losses.
I think you have to look at how Stalin viewed the value of his own people.
And all the while— Stalin’s agents (for example Philby) had been long ago infiltrated into Whitehall and Home Office, all the way back from before the Spanish Civil War.
Philby was there... and so was Hemingway (who knew Philby was a commie and never outed him to our own intel- wonder why that was— and why he later is an “asset” in Cuba, ostensibly to keep an daiquiri eye on Fidel- what idiocy). Orwell did out these commies, and much more integrity than the propped up hemingway. Quite a lesson there.
FDR’s ‘admin’ was riddled with neo-Marxist Socialist and Progressive fellow travelers, and he had to dump Henry Wallace the “seed baron socialist” as VP- under instruction of the Reds in FDRs inner circle— all of impeccable yale and harvard background full of self righteous indignance as in Alger Hiss and Harry Hopkins— olde school tie Communists. Same as in the UK— the Cambridge 5.
Already posted the continued to this day anti-US propaganda from Russia/Soviets— that FDR manipulated the Red Army into being cannon fodder (not because Stalin was a psychopathic paranoid former Tsarist Ohkrana agent who killed off anyone who could have known this). Cannon fodder to save American soldiers (and Brits) lives.
This was out for quite a while until some sober for once secret police types realized it perpetuated a notion of Stalin’s stupidity (brought to light in the famous Kruschev speech after Stalin’s death- denouncing Stalin, and purging his worst peeps).
Consider though, doing that, may have avoided Stalin being eventually overthrown in a military coup, which would have probably thrown the Soviet Union into total anarchy. I think Khrushchev himself even considered the possibility of leading a coup against Stalin, if the situation deteriorated even further.
You’re right!
The Italians might have won the war for us.
They got bogged down in the Balkans and the Germans had to rescue them, delaying the kickoff of Barbarossa, which mired the Germans down in a winter they weren’t prepared for, and, arguably, saved the Soviets.
They also got the Germans tied up in North Africa.
Without the delay to Barbarossa and their drain on German resources, the German might have won!
Interesting, that in his later years, Henry Wallace, did become a staunch Anti-Communist, and said he was ‘deceived’.
Brute Force by John Ellis is a good book about the war detailing the impact of Russian front and overall allied production.
The US provided the Russians with transport vehicles but their tanks were primarily Russian.
Exactly. Even the Greeks kicked their butts.
A German General in the early days of Barbarossa, saw the T-34 for the first time, and remarked that if the Soviets could mass produce the T-34, Germany would lose the war.
There was a military history professor at West Point in the 1980’s who had the view that the Allies did not beat the Wehrmacht. Instead, Hitler beat the Wehrmacht. He ran it into the ground.
Giderian was ready to execute Sea Lion. Hitler decided to go East instead, although I suspect a pessimistic assessment by Canaris had something to do with it. Canaris deliberately threw a few spanners in the works
Hitler’s demanding that the Me262 be a bomber as well delayed its use as an interceptor. Otherwise the Allied bombers would have been decimated.
Then there were the V weapons. No significant military value, just a terror weapon, diverting otherwise valuable resources. Yet these were the predecessors to the current ballistic and cruise missiles.
Then there were political roadblocks to Germany developing a fission weapon. That was the rejection of so called “Jewish Science”, which Germany’s remaining scientists were politically not allowed to use. The rejected resources wound up somewhere in New Mexico, and made a glass parking lot that is still a little “warm”.
And that is just a few blunders by the little corporal who relied on his fortune tellers.
I don’t think the Japanese had a choice about going to war with the US.
The embargo on oil and scrap steel was absolutely devastating to the Japanese economy. They needed to grab resources like oil, rubber, and iron, and force us to end the embargo.
It just didn’t go very well for them. The US had more industry on just the West Coast than existed in all of Japan, and the Japanese never managed to exploit their conquests very well.
—there was even a divison of Russian defectors, led by a General Vlasov—
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Andrey-Andreyevich-Vlasov
Like “waltzing” through the Hurtgen Forest? Or Market-Garden?
The Slavic people were also untermenschen to Hitler and the Nazis. The Slavs taught them a lesson.
When Britain also declared War on Japan, now the US was freed up to give Britain all the supplies she needed, both for Europe and Asia.
Hitler knew that for all intents and purposes, when the US declared war on Japan, it pretty much was a declaration of War on Germany.
Even had Hitler not declared war on the US, it only would have been a matter of time before Germany sunk a US vessel, providing the Casus Belli for the US to declare war on Germany.
Even without the Allies the Russians would still have beaten Germany
Yes, quite true— a bargaining chip for Yalta. There is a true story of the “repatriation” of Russian POWs who included the Ukrainian divisions who fought for the Nazi’s against the Holodomor NKVD run Soviets. The Ukrainians cheered the Nazis coming into liberate the Ukraine—and put on the uniform.
Stalin demanded the POWs be returned, and FDR and Churchill, who knew this included over 100K pro-Nazis (and would have been a formidable anti-Stalin force to make use of post war)- and yet let them across the border— where they were summarily murdered by massed NKVD. The story was researched and written about by a direct descendant of Tolstoy (who is himself a principled conservative UKIP Farage supporter).
Victims of Yalta: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victims_of_Yalta
Count Nikolai Dmitrievich Tolstoy-Miloslavsky:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolai_Tolstoy
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