Is it true that the Soviet Union actually won the war for the allies?

Quora.com ^ | August 13, 2019 | Dennis Weidner

[daniel1212]

Dennis Weidner, Amateur historian with a web site addressing many wars.

There is no doubt that it is was the Red Army that tore the heart out of the German Army. Vladimir accurately quotes PM Churchill on this. President Roosevelt said basically the same thing. And there is no Western historian of any importance who disagrees. Only people who get their history from Hollywood disagree. Unfortunately this seems to be the case of many Russians who have in their head that Americans question the importance of the Red Army. It simply is not true.

Several points need to be made in connection with this topic.

First the Soviet Union was not an Allied power. It was a co-belligerent. In fact for nearly the first two years of the War, the Soviets were allied with the NAZIS, both launching the War by invading Poland.. The Soviets conducted terrible atrocities in Poland and the other countries they invaded (1939–41). The Soviet NKVD behaved much like the NAZI SS. And the Soviets supported the NAZI war machine by shipping vast quantities of oil, strategic metals, and grain to NAZI Germany.

The Soviets were not only a NAZI ally, the two totalitarian giants JOINTLY invaded and partitioned Europe between themselves. They then BOTH committed terrible atrocities and bickered over the boundaries (1939–41). In addition, Stalin actually wanted to join the Axis. Only Hitler’s objections prevented this.

It is true that the Red Army had to fight the Germans virtually alone for nearly 2 years on the Eastern Front. But part of the reason for this was that the Soviets aid the Germans by the huge deliveries of material to defeat the French and drive Britain from the Continent. Having to fight alone was the Soviets own doing.

Now while it is certainly true that it was the Red Army that tore the heart out of the German Army, it is also true that the Western Allies played an important role in the defeat of NAZI Germany. Here it is important to note that it is not Americans denying the importance of the Red Army, it is Russians who deny the importance of the Western Allies.

In that connection, here is a partial list of what the Western Allies did:

1. American diplomacy so infuriated the Japanese and threatened their main interest (China) that they shifted their military plans from a Strike North to a Strike South strategy. Of course the battles with the Red Army (July 1939) were also a factor.) World War II Japan road to World War II

2. The RAF severely damaged the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain. The Luftwaffe was weaker in 1941 than when it played a key role in the German Western Offensive (1940). As a result the Wehrmacht had less air support than it had in the West. This is often ignored in Barbarossa assessments. Without the Battle of Britain, Hitler would have had an air force twice as large as he had in 1940. World War II air campaign -- Battle of Britain

3. British activity in the Mediterranean resulted in Hitler's Balkan adventure, delaying Barbarossa. The delay made a huge difference. If the Wehrmacht had had only a few more weeks of good weather, they may well have succeeded in destroying the Red Army. World War II Axis invasion of the Balkans

4. Another reason that Barbarossa failed is that Stalin was able to move sizable Siberian forces west and mount an offensive before Moscow (December 1941). The reason he was able to do this is American pressure on Japan forced them together end their war in China or attack the United states. They chose war with America. World War II Pacific naval campaigns -- Pearl Harbor

5. Although the Western Allies were not on the Continent in 1941, Britain being in the war, forced the Germans to maintain a substantial force in France. The Germany could not throw their full weight against the Soviets. World War II German occupation of France

6. American Lend Lease had an enormous impact on the Soviet war effort. Perhaps the most important was American trucks. Without the mobility provided by the trucks, the great Soviet victories of 1943-44 would not have been possible. And the without Lend Lease food, many Soviets would have starved. The Soviets may have prevailed without American help, but it would have taken them longer and it would have been at far greater cost. World War II campaigns -- Arsenal of Democracy Lend Lease countries Soviet Union

7. The Allied strategic bombing campaign had a massive impact on the German war economy. Without the air campaign, the Red Army would have faced better equipped German and other Axis troops. In addition, the Luftwaffe had to be pulled back to protect German cities. and huge numbers of artillery pieces had to be pointed up around German cities rather than deployed in the East. The quantity of ammunition not available in the East was massive. Second World War II Allied strategic bombing campaign

8. While the Heer was broken in the East. The Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine were both broken in the West. In terms of manpower, the German losses were highest in the East. But i terms of industrial production, a very substantial part of the NAZI war economy was devoted to the Luftwaffe and Keiegsmarine (especially efforts to build improved U-boats in 1944 1nd 45). And the effort to build secret weapons like the V-weapons was primarily aimed at the West. While German manpower was primarily committed to the East, the German war economy was not committed to the East to the same degree. World War II naval campaigns -- the Atlantic phase 2

9. German soldiers were primarily deployed in the East, but it is important to note that German industry, science, and technology was not comparably oriented. The fact that Britain remained in the War caused the Germans to significantly increase priorities to the Navy, especially U-boats. This diverted huge quantities of steel from tank and artillery production. The air war was even more important. Not only did the Strategic Bombing Campaign force the Germans to deploy much of their artillery and ammunition around German cities, but aircraft production was a sizeable component of German industry. Running the numerous, about half if German industry, perhaps more than, half was supporting the war in the West, not the War in the East. Germany World War II -- German industry

10. The British at first and then aided by America blockaded German/Axis ports. This meant the Germans were unable to import needed raw materials except from Sweden and a few other neutrals bordering on NAZI controlled territory. World War II -- economics raw materials food metals

11. While Hitler was able to deploy most of his land forces in the East. This changed after Alamein and Torch. Thus in 1943-45, he was forced to deploy substantial forces in the West, relieving pressure in the Red Army. World War II Western Desert : Afrika Koprs

12. The Western Allies passed on insights gained through Ultra to the Soviets. The Soviets passed on nothing learned from their intelligence efforts to the Allies. World War II -- cracking the German Enigma code systems Ultra

13. Japan was unable to threaten the Soviets from the east even after failing to aid Barbarossa. After Midway, the Japanese were so heavily engaged by America that they no longer had the strength to attack the Soviet Union. https://www.histclo.com/essay/war/ww2/sea/pac/ncp-mid.html

14. The American Arsenal of Democracy overpowered the Axis. America had the largest economy in the world and after Pearl Harbor it was mobilized for war. And the Axis economies could simply not keep match it. World War II campaigns -- arsenal of democracy

15. Financing war is an often overlooked topic, in part because it does not interest military historians. An here again America led the way. No country in history had ever spent so much money on a war. And no country had ever ended a war with such a massive debt. World War II -- United States financing the war borrowing

[John S Mosby]

Here is something often, nearly always overlooked. In the 1920s of the Bolshevik revolution in Russia— there were many MANY American backers of the Bolsheviks.

They accompanied Trotsky on his trip to Russia, and are documented having boarded/departed from Halifax, N.S.

Backers of Trotsky and the Bolshies included Ford, Jacob Schiff (major proponent of the 1913 Federal Reserve Bank, private bank chartered), and J.P. Morgan. This should all be familiar but it is not often mentioned/edited out. The goal of course was getting hands on the Romanov’s wealth- and removing them.

Ford built and financed a Ford plant in Soviet Union— how he was allowed to do this has to be because of his Wilson connections prior. Wilson being the quintessential Progressive princetonian ‘world peace’ fellow traveler. Whose wife ran his office, in secret (sound familiar Ms. Biden?)

It was Wilson, for instance who got Trotsky an American Passport, when Trotsky was being held by British Secret Service in Halifax, N.S. Trotsky had (public records) $10,000 US (now $212K in current value) on him when arrested in Halifax. It was Wilson that freed him, to return to Russia for the Bolshie Revolution in May of 1917, with his money provided by Leftie English Lord Milner (all verified in documents in UK). It was Milner and Foreign Secretary Grey who dragged the US into WwI (Wilson being not in control at the time- but his... wife).

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/ford-signs-agreement-with-soviet-union

It is also not ironic- that Lenin was backed by the Kaiser and the German High Command, and financed/protected in his travel with 40 other Bolshies— to Helsinki and thence to St. Petersburg for the Bolshie Revolt. The interim idiots under Kerensky (socialist/democrat) had an opportunity to arrest and remove Lenin- but he fled and they let him slip back in. The rest, including a shooting war between the Socialist Revolutionary Party and the Bolshies, was won by the NKVD, Lenin, Stalin and all the rest.

The Backers of all this— should be held in contempt for the millenium. Every single one. Fords writings on all this put him well inside the Leftist Socialist Hitler’s side. Leftist totalitarian industrialist— today it is the tech “lords” (used to be they only called the cocaine cartels “lords”)— are the same thing, and they are criminals.

[John S Mosby]

Sean Bean’s character— interesting bit of film writing by an informed Brit writer would bet.

Zbigniew Brezinski (Mika’s dad) was said to be Polish and somehow a “white russian”— politics under Carter.. very far Left Leftist Socialist, which would fit a White Russian anti-Stalin and pro-Nazi past. Not out of the realm of affiliated shared sides.

Dots to connect-— Joe Scarborough, and MSNBC and all that past. Can’t stand either mika or joe— disgusting pair of liars.

[dfwgator]

Sean Bean’s character— interesting bit of film writing by an informed Brit writer would bet.

Don't tell me, his character dies in the movie.

[dearolddad]

All sorts of mitigating factors “won the war” for the allies. I think the biggest one is Hitler’s incompetence as a CIC.

Hitler fu*ked himself by spending so much effort killing Jews and thinking he was smarter than his generals.

[mass55th]

When did Germany invade the U.S.? Did I miss that history class?

[daniel1212]

So we sent 13,000 tanks/SP, the Soviets produced 89,800 medium and heavy tanks/SP. For aircraft, we sent 14,000 and the Soviet Union produced 136,200.

But (asking) as a percentage how much came from or was enabled from the West in the first years of the war, versus totality?

[BroJoeK]

"I think the 800,000 Germans who surrendered at Stalingrad were more than were deployed on the western front."

Sorry, I think you let an extra zero slip in there -- 80,000 Germans surrendered at Stalingrad is closer to the mark.
Of course, if you expand your definition of "Stalingrad" wide enough, you do eventually reach 800,000 but that is total casualties for the entire period, including Italians & Romanians, not just the final surrender.

German western front troop strength peaked at around 2 million in 1944, with all told about 8 million Germans served there, of whom one million were killed or wounded, four million captured.

[BroJoeK]

Little Ray: "Without the delay to Barbarossa and their drain on German resources, the German might have won!"

I have read historians make the case that because of 1941 wet spring weather, swollen rivers, muddy roads, etc., Hitler could not have launched Barbarossa before late June without encountering the same problems he had that fall.

The real problem was that in 1941 the German Army was fit for good-weather summer-time fighting only.
Compare the Germans' premier tank at that time, the Panzer Mark 4, to the Soviet T-34:

[alternatives?]

I don’t have distributions by years.

If you read German memoirs the T34 really caused them fits in the early part of the war. I don’t recall any mentions of the Sherman tanks on the Russian front. The British tankers referred to the Sherman tanks as Tommy cookers. The thing the Russians always seemed to appreciate was the Studebaker trucks. They evidently were really workhorses and indestructible.

[BroJoeK]

JimRed: "Without the Soviets the war would have lasted longer, and Berlin would now be listed with Hiroshima and Nagasaki."

dfwgator: "I don't think nuking Berlin was on the table, because of the impact of Fallout spreading across the Continent."

JimRed is right.
The original US war plans called for double the number of US divisions, intended to be used in Europe assuming Soviets were out of the war.
As Soviets remained in the war, US planners reduced the numbers of US divisions and left many more Americans in factories producing war materials, some to help keep Soviets fighting.

And the Atomic Bomb, of course, was planned from the beginning for use against Germany, not Japan.
FDR's intention was to reduce Germany to an agricultural nation incapable of launching World War Three.

Nobody at the time knew or cared anything about atomic fallout.

[John S Mosby]

Yeah he’s a bad guy— come to think of it, if his dad was anti-Soviet White Russian murdered by Stalin that was why he was cast as somehow a “baddie” well as the motivation to get back at the russky assumedly commies- —

because he took over the russian killer satellite targetable by the Golden Eye, which was hacked by a geek pal of his in the plot.
But he does get it in the end— and think it was out in the middle of the receiver module over Arecibo radio dish in P.R. Bond and him duking it out etc.— That dish is now totally broken up from lack of maintenance, metal fatigue etc. There is video of that module and all supporting cables (web cam) falling to the center of the dish— big crash.

[daniel1212]

I don’t have distributions by years.

Me neither. But,

Under Lend-Lease, 4,102 M4A2 medium tanks were sent to the Soviet Union. Of these, 2,007 were equipped with the original 75 mm main gun, with 2,095 mounting the more-capable 76 mm gun. The total number of Sherman tanks sent to the USSR under Lend-Lease represented 18.6% of all Lend-Lease Shermans.[40] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M4_Sherman And

In 1939, the most numerous Soviet tank models were the T-26 infantry tank and the BT series of fast tanks...Both were Soviet developments of foreign designs from the early 1930s; the T-26 was based on the British Vickers 6-Ton, and the BT tanks were based on a design from American engineer J. Walter Christie.[15].. During the Battle of Lake Khasan in July 1938 and the Battles of Khalkhin Gol in 1939, an undeclared border war with Japan on the frontier with occupied Manchuria, the Soviets deployed numerous tanks against the Imperial Japanese Army (IJA)...The Soviet tanks were also easily destroyed by the Japanese Type 95 tank's 37 mm gunfire, despite the low velocity of that gun,[22] or "at any other slightest provocation".[23]

The first production T-34s were completed in September 1940, completely replacing the production of the T-26, the BT series and the multi-turreted T-28 medium tank at the KhPZ plant.[27]...The Christie suspension of the T34 was inherited from the design of American J. Walter Christie's M1928 tank, versions of which were sold turret-less to the Red Army and documented as "farm tractors", after being rejected by the U.S. Army. ...The T-34 posed new challenges for the Soviet industry. It had heavier armour than any medium tank produced to date, and there were problems with defective armour plates.[29] Only company commanders' tanks could be fitted with radios (originally the 71-TK-3 radio set), due to their expense and short supply – the rest of the tank crews in each company signalled with flags.[30]....Production of this first T-34 series – the Model 1940 – totalled only about 400,[31] before production was switched to the Model 1941, with the F-34 gun, 9-RS radio set (also installed on the SU-100), and even thicker armour.[32] ..After Germany's surprise invasion of the Soviet Union on 22 June 1941 (Operation Barbarossa), the Wehrmacht's rapid advances forced the evacuation and relocation of Soviet tank factories eastwards to the Ural Mountains, an undertaking of immense scale and haste that presented enormous logistic difficulties and was extremely punishing to the workers involved....Stalingrad kept up production until September 1942....In 1943, T-34 production had reached an average of 1,300 per month; this was the equivalent of three full-strength Panzer divisions.[40]

A report by the 2nd Guards Tank Army in February 1945 revealed that the average engine service life of a T-34 was lower than the official warranty at 185–190 hours. For comparison, the US M4 Sherman had an average engine service life of 195–205 hours.[87] During the Korean war the Americans captured a North Korean T-34 85, evaluating its performance. According to the tank’s instruments, it had travelled for 741 km, but the level of wear on the engine was minimal. The quality of materials used were "ample for the job" with some being "better than those used in American tanks". Protective coatings used to prevent wear of components were deemed "most effective". However the tank also had various defects. The gearbox was seen as problematic and unreliable and the US opinion of the transmission was exceptionally low, stating that it had "by American standards already failed". Analysis from the CIA suggested it was due to "inadequate design" due to the fact that the quality of materials used was not poor.[88]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-34

[ADemocratNoMore]

>Regarding Lease, if you’ve never read “From Major Jordan’s Diaries”

WOW ! I just downloaded the .pdf and scanned the preface. We’ve got the U.S. government giving atomic weapon and other military secrets and material to the Russians and the Mainstream Media attacking the Major and denying the facts.

Sound familiar ? It’s a replay of modern domestic treason against the United States only it was going on some 75 years ago. Mind Boggling is a good description for what I’ve seen so far.

[FreedomPoster]

Pretty much. McCarthy was right, you know. Read Blacklisted by History.

[FreedomPoster]

The comment there is that if strategically Italy was the soft underbelly of Europe, tactically it was the strong backbone. Mountainous with lots of E-W rivers running from the mountains to the sea made for *great* defensive positions.

[FreedomPoster]

Go read Chapter 9 in my pist #27. That massive tank and aircraft production by the Soviets was only possible because of all the trucks, food, industrial equipment, and material we sent.

[BroJoeK]

"When did Germany invade the U.S.?
Did I miss that history class?"

It was a short class, so maybe, yes... ;-)

In fact the Imperial German high command began making plans to invade the US in 1897, there were three different plans, the last in 1906.
None were serious, all were "thought exercises", what today are called "contingency plans" of which we might suppose the US Pentagon has thousands, for every conceivable future situation.

During the Second World War German U-boats sank US ships, including naval ships (i.e., USS Rubin James, sunk October 31, 1941), which President Roosevelt tried to use to interest Americans in declaring war on Germany, but Americans were not having it.
After Pearl Harbor German attacks on US shipping increased drastically, and there was even a landing of special agents (Operation Pastorius) on Long Island, NY, hoping to blow up something important.

The Japanese, of course, did not just attack at Pearl Harbor, but also invaded US territories like the Philippines, Guam, Wake and Alaska.

Before Pearl Harbor something like 80% of Americans opposed US entry to WWII, after Pearl Harbor it was almost unanimous in favor of war.
As for making war on Germany, Hitler made that choice easy -- he declared war on the US on December 11, 1941.

U-522 (Type VII) sank the destroyer USS Rueben James, October 31, 1941.
That did not move US public opinion towards war with Germany:
>

[BroJoeK]

"Mountainous with lots of E-W rivers running from the mountains to the sea made for *great* defensive positions."

And they had one of the most capable German generals in charge of defending Italy, "Smiling Albert" Kesselring.

[mass55th]

Thanks. I had a friend whose father was in the Merchant Marines during WWII. On one of my visits doing research at the National Archives years ago, I tracked down his service records for her. Britain, and U.S. shipping suffered heavily in both wars from German U-Boats. For a nation that was always concerned about being invaded, it is unbelievable that in the 30’s, England imported just about everything. They were rationing food well into the 50’s. I still don’t understand how they allowed Germany to occupy the Channel Islands. After WWI, Germany scuttled a large part of their naval ships off the coast of Scotland. A Scottish salvage company gathered up as much of it as they could, and eventually, quite a bit of that same iron was sold back to Germany.

[xzins]

Not even close. The usa won the war for the allies.

While stalin worried about germany, the more lethal Japan was kept at bay by the us in the pacific.

Meanwhile the usa opened a 2d front in N Africa and then Italy.

The ussr survived because the usa kept japan off their rear, kept the sea lanes open, fought germany in the south, and then cleaned their clock in europe.