Posted on 01/29/2021 7:38:15 AM PST by daniel1212
Dennis Weidner,
There is no doubt that it is was the Red Army that tore the heart out of the German Army. Vladimir accurately quotes PM Churchill on this. President Roosevelt said basically the same thing. And there is no Western historian of any importance who disagrees. Only people who get their history from Hollywood disagree. Unfortunately this seems to be the case of many Russians who have in their head that Americans question the importance of the Red Army. It simply is not true.
Several points need to be made in connection with this topic.
First the Soviet Union was not an Allied power. It was a co-belligerent. In fact for nearly the first two years of the War, the Soviets were allied with the NAZIS, both launching the War by invading Poland.. The Soviets conducted terrible atrocities in Poland and the other countries they invaded (1939–41). The Soviet NKVD behaved much like the NAZI SS. And the Soviets supported the NAZI war machine by shipping vast quantities of oil, strategic metals, and grain to NAZI Germany.
The Soviets were not only a NAZI ally, the two totalitarian giants JOINTLY invaded and partitioned Europe between themselves. They then BOTH committed terrible atrocities and bickered over the boundaries (1939–41). In addition, Stalin actually wanted to join the Axis. Only Hitler’s objections prevented this.
It is true that the Red Army had to fight the Germans virtually alone for nearly 2 years on the Eastern Front. But part of the reason for this was that the Soviets aid the Germans by the huge deliveries of material to defeat the French and drive Britain from the Continent. Having to fight alone was the Soviets own doing.
Now while it is certainly true that it was the Red Army that tore the heart out of the German Army, it is also true that the Western Allies played an important role in the defeat of NAZI Germany. Here it is important to note that it is not Americans denying the importance of the Red Army, it is Russians who deny the importance of the Western Allies.
In that connection, here is a partial list of what the Western Allies did:
1. American diplomacy so infuriated the Japanese and threatened their main interest (China) that they shifted their military plans from a Strike North to a Strike South strategy. Of course the battles with the Red Army (July 1939) were also a factor.) World War II Japan road to World War II
2. The RAF severely damaged the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain. The Luftwaffe was weaker in 1941 than when it played a key role in the German Western Offensive (1940). As a result the Wehrmacht had less air support than it had in the West. This is often ignored in Barbarossa assessments. Without the Battle of Britain, Hitler would have had an air force twice as large as he had in 1940. World War II air campaign -- Battle of Britain
3. British activity in the Mediterranean resulted in Hitler's Balkan adventure, delaying Barbarossa. The delay made a huge difference. If the Wehrmacht had had only a few more weeks of good weather, they may well have succeeded in destroying the Red Army. World War II Axis invasion of the Balkans
4. Another reason that Barbarossa failed is that Stalin was able to move sizable Siberian forces west and mount an offensive before Moscow (December 1941). The reason he was able to do this is American pressure on Japan forced them together end their war in China or attack the United states. They chose war with America. World War II Pacific naval campaigns -- Pearl Harbor
5. Although the Western Allies were not on the Continent in 1941, Britain being in the war, forced the Germans to maintain a substantial force in France. The Germany could not throw their full weight against the Soviets. World War II German occupation of France
6. American Lend Lease had an enormous impact on the Soviet war effort. Perhaps the most important was American trucks. Without the mobility provided by the trucks, the great Soviet victories of 1943-44 would not have been possible. And the without Lend Lease food, many Soviets would have starved. The Soviets may have prevailed without American help, but it would have taken them longer and it would have been at far greater cost. World War II campaigns -- Arsenal of Democracy Lend Lease countries Soviet Union
7. The Allied strategic bombing campaign had a massive impact on the German war economy. Without the air campaign, the Red Army would have faced better equipped German and other Axis troops. In addition, the Luftwaffe had to be pulled back to protect German cities. and huge numbers of artillery pieces had to be pointed up around German cities rather than deployed in the East. The quantity of ammunition not available in the East was massive. Second World War II Allied strategic bombing campaign
8. While the Heer was broken in the East. The Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine were both broken in the West. In terms of manpower, the German losses were highest in the East. But i terms of industrial production, a very substantial part of the NAZI war economy was devoted to the Luftwaffe and Keiegsmarine (especially efforts to build improved U-boats in 1944 1nd 45). And the effort to build secret weapons like the V-weapons was primarily aimed at the West. While German manpower was primarily committed to the East, the German war economy was not committed to the East to the same degree. World War II naval campaigns -- the Atlantic phase 2
9. German soldiers were primarily deployed in the East, but it is important to note that German industry, science, and technology was not comparably oriented. The fact that Britain remained in the War caused the Germans to significantly increase priorities to the Navy, especially U-boats. This diverted huge quantities of steel from tank and artillery production. The air war was even more important. Not only did the Strategic Bombing Campaign force the Germans to deploy much of their artillery and ammunition around German cities, but aircraft production was a sizeable component of German industry. Running the numerous, about half if German industry, perhaps more than, half was supporting the war in the West, not the War in the East. Germany World War II -- German industry
10. The British at first and then aided by America blockaded German/Axis ports. This meant the Germans were unable to import needed raw materials except from Sweden and a few other neutrals bordering on NAZI controlled territory. World War II -- economics raw materials food metals
11. While Hitler was able to deploy most of his land forces in the East. This changed after Alamein and Torch. Thus in 1943-45, he was forced to deploy substantial forces in the West, relieving pressure in the Red Army. World War II Western Desert : Afrika Koprs
12. The Western Allies passed on insights gained through Ultra to the Soviets. The Soviets passed on nothing learned from their intelligence efforts to the Allies. World War II -- cracking the German Enigma code systems Ultra
13. Japan was unable to threaten the Soviets from the east even after failing to aid Barbarossa. After Midway, the Japanese were so heavily engaged by America that they no longer had the strength to attack the Soviet Union. https://www.histclo.com/essay/war/ww2/sea/pac/ncp-mid.html
14. The American Arsenal of Democracy overpowered the Axis. America had the largest economy in the world and after Pearl Harbor it was mobilized for war. And the Axis economies could simply not keep match it. World War II campaigns -- arsenal of democracy
15. Financing war is an often overlooked topic, in part because it does not interest military historians. An here again America led the way. No country in history had ever spent so much money on a war. And no country had ever ended a war with such a massive debt. World War II -- United States financing the war borrowing
So we sent 13,000 tanks/SP, the Soviets produced 89,800 medium and heavy tanks/SP.
For aircraft, we sent 14,000 and the Soviet Union produced 136,200.
Churchill came up with Gallipoli in WW1
https://www.history.com/news/winston-churchills-world-war-disaster
He also thought Italy was the soft underbelly in WW2.
Many people killed because of one man.
If it had succeeded, I think the German officers and politicians who were involved planned to sue for peace immediately.
[Also, Japan attacking eastern Siberia ... why?]
The thing is - for the Japanese, helping the Germans overrun Russia was essentially inviting trouble. So they made sympathetic noises about the German effort against the Russians while doing just about nothing to help them. Khalkin Gol is something that both the Russians and the Japanese hyped up as an overwhelming Soviet victory - the Soviets because they needed a morale boost, and the Japanese because they decided they did not want Germany on the border of their Chinese possessions. The grim reality, from the Russian standpoint, was that the Japanese had fewer dead and missing than the Soviets despite both manpower and material inferiority.
The Soviets initially claimed 9,284 total casualties, which was almost certainly reduced for propaganda purposes. In recent years, with the opening of the Soviet archives, a more accurate assessment of Soviet casualties has emerged from the work of Grigoriy Krivosheev, citing 7,974 killed and 15,251 wounded.[64] In the newer, 2001 edition, the Soviet losses are given as 9,703 killed and missing (6,472 killed and died of wounds during evacuation, 1,152 died of wounds in hospitals, 8 died of disease, 2,028 missing, 43 non-combat dead), 15,251 wounded, and a further 701 to 2,225 sick, totaling between 25,655 and 27,179 casualties.[65][16] In addition to their personnel losses, the Soviets lost a large amount of materiel including 253 tanks, 250 aircraft (including 208 in combat), 96 artillery pieces, and 133 armored cars. Of the Soviet tank losses, 75–80% were destroyed by anti-tank guns, 15–20% by field artillery, 5–10% by infantry-thrown incendiary bombs, 2–3% by aircraft, and 2–3% by hand grenades and mines.[17] The large number of Soviet armor casualties are reflected in the manpower losses for Soviet tank crews. A total of 1,559 Soviet “Tank Troops” were killed or wounded during the battles.[66] ]
Russia demonstrated an enormous capacity to mobilize armies
After some initial Japanese victories, the Russians amassed a much greater force
Japanese reoriented its expansionist plans from the north to the south (and, from the army to the navy)
westerners explained away the Russian victory supposing the Japanese soldier to be inferior
Without the Soviets the war would have lasted longer, and Berlin would now be listed with Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Also the Belarussians.
If you want to see how the Germans treated them, just watch the movie “Come and See”.
I don't think nuking Berlin was on the table, because of the impact of Fallout spreading across the Continent.
It turned into a "tough, old gut". But still, it diverted enough German forces to make the Normandy invasion possible. Even Churchill grudgingly had to admit it. Ironically, the liberation of Rome on June 5th, was quickly overshadowed by D-Day.
Not to mention the French...
A U.S. Navy Admiral was attending a naval conference that included Admirals from the U.S., English, Canadian, Australian and French Navies. At a cocktail reception, he found himself standing with a large group of officers that included personnel from most of those countries. Everyone was chatting away in English as they sipped their drinks but a French admiral suddenly complained that, whereas Europeans learn many languages, Americans learn only English. He then asked, “Why is it that we always have to speak English in these conferences rather than speaking French?”
Without hesitating, the American Admiral replied, “Maybe it’s because the Brits, Canadians, Aussies and Americans arranged it so you wouldn’t have to speak German.”
Let's just say that the Volga Germans would have been very well off.
When DeGaulle requested that all American troops leave France, LBJ told then Secretary of State Dean Acheson, “Ask him about the cemeteries, Dean!”
Yes, we did supply the Soviets, but they also were able to produce great tanks and other war materiel without our help. It has been said, though, that while the Allied bombing campaigns didn't destroy German industry, they did keep the Luftwaffe occupied and eventually destroyed it, greatly helping the Soviets.
Hitler's main focus was on the East and on settling the fertile lands of the Ukraine with Germans. He hated the Soviets and admired the English, and would not have been opposed to making peace with Britain. But I've heard that said so often, I start to wonder. He must have gotten an immense satisfaction out of crushing the French.
They referred to the troops on the Italian front as the "D-Day Dodgers". There was a song about it, to the tune of Lili Marlene.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcFC57nT0xY
James Bond film GOLDENEYE does mention Cossacks as well... Rogue British agent Alec Trevelyan has to be stopped by Agent 007...Trevelyan's parents were Cossacks who were sent back to USSR by British after WW2...Trevelyan wanted some revenge for what British government did.
Remember...Japan did send troops to Siberia after Russian Revolution...
Correct. The Russians were indifferent to wastage rates both civilian and military.
So did we.
Mussolini did send his troops to USSR to help Hitler...
Back then, USSR did not have T-34 tanks...
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