By the way, here’s where you’ve got to give Stalin some credit. He treated conquered German allies relatively well. Former German allies Rumania and Bulgaria even fielded armies that fought alongside the Soviets.
Posted on 01/29/2021 7:38:15 AM PST by daniel1212
Dennis Weidner,
There is no doubt that it is was the Red Army that tore the heart out of the German Army. Vladimir accurately quotes PM Churchill on this. President Roosevelt said basically the same thing. And there is no Western historian of any importance who disagrees. Only people who get their history from Hollywood disagree. Unfortunately this seems to be the case of many Russians who have in their head that Americans question the importance of the Red Army. It simply is not true.
Several points need to be made in connection with this topic.
First the Soviet Union was not an Allied power. It was a co-belligerent. In fact for nearly the first two years of the War, the Soviets were allied with the NAZIS, both launching the War by invading Poland.. The Soviets conducted terrible atrocities in Poland and the other countries they invaded (1939–41). The Soviet NKVD behaved much like the NAZI SS. And the Soviets supported the NAZI war machine by shipping vast quantities of oil, strategic metals, and grain to NAZI Germany.
The Soviets were not only a NAZI ally, the two totalitarian giants JOINTLY invaded and partitioned Europe between themselves. They then BOTH committed terrible atrocities and bickered over the boundaries (1939–41). In addition, Stalin actually wanted to join the Axis. Only Hitler’s objections prevented this.
It is true that the Red Army had to fight the Germans virtually alone for nearly 2 years on the Eastern Front. But part of the reason for this was that the Soviets aid the Germans by the huge deliveries of material to defeat the French and drive Britain from the Continent. Having to fight alone was the Soviets own doing.
Now while it is certainly true that it was the Red Army that tore the heart out of the German Army, it is also true that the Western Allies played an important role in the defeat of NAZI Germany. Here it is important to note that it is not Americans denying the importance of the Red Army, it is Russians who deny the importance of the Western Allies.
In that connection, here is a partial list of what the Western Allies did:
1. American diplomacy so infuriated the Japanese and threatened their main interest (China) that they shifted their military plans from a Strike North to a Strike South strategy. Of course the battles with the Red Army (July 1939) were also a factor.) World War II Japan road to World War II
2. The RAF severely damaged the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain. The Luftwaffe was weaker in 1941 than when it played a key role in the German Western Offensive (1940). As a result the Wehrmacht had less air support than it had in the West. This is often ignored in Barbarossa assessments. Without the Battle of Britain, Hitler would have had an air force twice as large as he had in 1940. World War II air campaign -- Battle of Britain
3. British activity in the Mediterranean resulted in Hitler's Balkan adventure, delaying Barbarossa. The delay made a huge difference. If the Wehrmacht had had only a few more weeks of good weather, they may well have succeeded in destroying the Red Army. World War II Axis invasion of the Balkans
4. Another reason that Barbarossa failed is that Stalin was able to move sizable Siberian forces west and mount an offensive before Moscow (December 1941). The reason he was able to do this is American pressure on Japan forced them together end their war in China or attack the United states. They chose war with America. World War II Pacific naval campaigns -- Pearl Harbor
5. Although the Western Allies were not on the Continent in 1941, Britain being in the war, forced the Germans to maintain a substantial force in France. The Germany could not throw their full weight against the Soviets. World War II German occupation of France
6. American Lend Lease had an enormous impact on the Soviet war effort. Perhaps the most important was American trucks. Without the mobility provided by the trucks, the great Soviet victories of 1943-44 would not have been possible. And the without Lend Lease food, many Soviets would have starved. The Soviets may have prevailed without American help, but it would have taken them longer and it would have been at far greater cost. World War II campaigns -- Arsenal of Democracy Lend Lease countries Soviet Union
7. The Allied strategic bombing campaign had a massive impact on the German war economy. Without the air campaign, the Red Army would have faced better equipped German and other Axis troops. In addition, the Luftwaffe had to be pulled back to protect German cities. and huge numbers of artillery pieces had to be pointed up around German cities rather than deployed in the East. The quantity of ammunition not available in the East was massive. Second World War II Allied strategic bombing campaign
8. While the Heer was broken in the East. The Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine were both broken in the West. In terms of manpower, the German losses were highest in the East. But i terms of industrial production, a very substantial part of the NAZI war economy was devoted to the Luftwaffe and Keiegsmarine (especially efforts to build improved U-boats in 1944 1nd 45). And the effort to build secret weapons like the V-weapons was primarily aimed at the West. While German manpower was primarily committed to the East, the German war economy was not committed to the East to the same degree. World War II naval campaigns -- the Atlantic phase 2
9. German soldiers were primarily deployed in the East, but it is important to note that German industry, science, and technology was not comparably oriented. The fact that Britain remained in the War caused the Germans to significantly increase priorities to the Navy, especially U-boats. This diverted huge quantities of steel from tank and artillery production. The air war was even more important. Not only did the Strategic Bombing Campaign force the Germans to deploy much of their artillery and ammunition around German cities, but aircraft production was a sizeable component of German industry. Running the numerous, about half if German industry, perhaps more than, half was supporting the war in the West, not the War in the East. Germany World War II -- German industry
10. The British at first and then aided by America blockaded German/Axis ports. This meant the Germans were unable to import needed raw materials except from Sweden and a few other neutrals bordering on NAZI controlled territory. World War II -- economics raw materials food metals
11. While Hitler was able to deploy most of his land forces in the East. This changed after Alamein and Torch. Thus in 1943-45, he was forced to deploy substantial forces in the West, relieving pressure in the Red Army. World War II Western Desert : Afrika Koprs
12. The Western Allies passed on insights gained through Ultra to the Soviets. The Soviets passed on nothing learned from their intelligence efforts to the Allies. World War II -- cracking the German Enigma code systems Ultra
13. Japan was unable to threaten the Soviets from the east even after failing to aid Barbarossa. After Midway, the Japanese were so heavily engaged by America that they no longer had the strength to attack the Soviet Union. https://www.histclo.com/essay/war/ww2/sea/pac/ncp-mid.html
14. The American Arsenal of Democracy overpowered the Axis. America had the largest economy in the world and after Pearl Harbor it was mobilized for war. And the Axis economies could simply not keep match it. World War II campaigns -- arsenal of democracy
15. Financing war is an often overlooked topic, in part because it does not interest military historians. An here again America led the way. No country in history had ever spent so much money on a war. And no country had ever ended a war with such a massive debt. World War II -- United States financing the war borrowing
something interesting I read years ago.
A Churchill plan to sideline Russia in the war by England and the US invading Greece, sweeping North and driving a wedge between the Russian and German armies, therefore denying the Russians a victory by taking over the fighting on the Eastern Front from the Russians.
The plan was rejected.
Hitler made mistakes.
Hitler single mistakes that cost him the war was declaring war on the United States, and allowing the German army and Gestapo/SS to treat the Polish and Russians badly (they probably would have joined with him against Stalin). Japans single mistake that cost them the war was attacking Pearl Harbor and not the Russians.
Everything after that involved the United States and US war production which was so disparate, that he War could only end one way.
When Germany invaded Poland, they declared on two economies that greatly exceeded their own. They managed to defeat France, but when they declared war on Russia and the US that number rose to three.
So Germany was fighting three nations with manpower and industry that dwarfed its own, even with the industries captured from other countries added in.
Japan was even worse off.
Talk about your poor planning. Sometimes I am amazed at how long they lasted. I guess that shows their understanding of the way to wage war. They were tactically brilliant, but strategically moronic.
Many Russians and Ukrainians originally welcomed the Germans as “liberators”
Yes If he had not sent in the death squads his forces aided by Ukranians would have easily crossed the Volga and cut supplies and fuel off to Moscow.
I would like to see a comparison of what the Soviets expected to gain in terms of occupied countries if Hitler had left them in the Axis as opposed to what they actually were conceded by the Allies after the war.
Joe Stalin changed sides due to Hitler turning on him. But did Stalin get more of Eastern Europe than Hitler planned to give him?
As far as lend lease went, the Soviets sent a lot of that military aid back to North Korea during the Korean War. They were far more of an adversary in the Korean War than the Chinese. As soon as Stalin died and the Soviet leaders were forced to back off with their support, the North Koreans sued for peace. Of course you would never pick up on that by watching the M.A.S.H. propaganda.
Hitler really wanted an alliance with Britain. When they refused him, he considered it a slap in the face, and von Ribbentrop, also felt insulted by the Brits when he was the Ambassador to Britain, and convinced Hitler that Britain was his biggest enemy.
Regarding Lease, if you’ve never read “From Major Jordan’s Diaries” about the amounts of material and food provided, you should. It is completely mind boggling.
Here’s the full book.
http://citizensnewswire.org/files/mjd.pdf
Here are the tabulations in chapter 9.
http://www.jrbooksonline.com/fdr-scandal-page/lend.html
Trucks were important, and were the tip of the iceberg.
I think Daniel Yergin put his finger on it with “The Prize.” You can’t wage much of a war without oil, Hitler hadn’t any, Russia did, so to Russia he went. His low opinion of Russians just helped him make a complete fool of himself.
Moreover, Russians can put up with a lot. They’ll eat dirt and sleep on ice, or eat nothing and stay awake longer than anybody. Adversity isn’t just the mother of invention, it’s the harsh psychonanny of the Russian.
And Hitler didn’t supply his troops adequately, because he thought it’d be a brief romp. Supply lines matter. Winter came, as it had for Napoleon.
Apparently the Germans didn’t understand about mud, and frozen equipment, and other practical concerns related to Russian weather.
Not to mention, Germans were invaders, Russians were defending the motherland, and a very big land it was.
So yes, Russian ruggedness wore out the German military machine. That and Hitler’s egomania.
After a while, without oil, all those planes and tanks were just so many very big paperweights.
Hitler attacked the Soviet Union, because he was afraid the Soviets would get the Romanian oil fields.
We (and everybody else) thought Hitler would quickly defeat the Soviet Union. Many specifics can be mentioned for the Soviet Union’s success in stopping Hitler and then going on the offense:
1.U.S. lend lease (and allied coordination in general)
2.Japan not threatening the Soviet Union (and lack of axis coordination in general)
3.Stalin’s ruthlessness with respect to his own people. I don’t think a democratic leader could have survived the losses suffered by the Soviet Union.
4.The Russian people. Their capacity to suffer. May God bless the Russian people for their noble sacrifice to save their country and entire the world.
5.The brilliant strategy (or was it a strategy) of appearing to disintegrate around Stalingrad, sucking the Germans into an army group-sized ambush.
Having said this, prior to Germany’s invasion of the Soviet Union, we were preparing to fight the entire gang of dictators along with their lesser allies and subordinated states. And, Churchill anticipated such a possibility.
Many people recall Churchill’s line we will fight them on the beaches, etc. Few know of what he said following this: And if it should be that we or a large part of our island is occupied, then we shall continue the war from our overseas territories until the New World comes to the rescue and liberation of the Old.
Churchill was referring to us, boys and girls, back in the days we were great.
Hitler also got sucked in by the Red Army’s problems in Finland, and figured they were a Paper Tiger.
Zhukov kicked the Japs’ butt in 1939, from that point on, Japan had no interest in taking on The Soviet Union.
Two Words: L E N D L E A S E
It was totally unrealistic from a geographic, logistics, and military power at the time perspective.
Some sources say that 80% of German forces were deployed to the east.
Not inconcievable that DDay would have been in 1945 rather than 1944 if the wermacht were evenly deployed.
I think allied air superiority would have carried the day eventually.
I think the 800,000 Germans who surrendered at Stalingrad were more than were deployed on the western front.
By the way, here’s where you’ve got to give Stalin some credit. He treated conquered German allies relatively well. Former German allies Rumania and Bulgaria even fielded armies that fought alongside the Soviets.
Ha, you forgot the Italians.
They actually did more for our side, when they were part of The Axis.
I don’t think the Japanese would have done very well against the Soviets. They fought two campaigns against them (”incidents”) and were very roughly handled by the Soviets. If nothing else, the Soviets had MUCH better armor and artillery than the Japanese.
Also, IIRC, when Hitler declared war against the US, he was looking for Japanese to declare war again the Soviets - which didn’t happen!!
Maybe I should be more clear. If he had focused on the area around Germany, honored his agreement with Stalin (if only for a while longer), and built up his empire, he would probably have prevailed. In the end, he just bit off more than he could chew, at least in the timeframe he chose.
Bump for later reading
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