Posted on 02/20/2020 9:13:10 PM PST by Pelham
Thomas Fleming talked about his book, A Disease in the Public Mind: A New Understanding of Why We Fought the Civil War, in which he portrays the Civil War as a tragedy that American leaders foresaw and struggled to prevent.
He spoke about how public opinion and propaganda helped spark the war, and the longstanding tensions between the North and South. He also discussed events that heightened fear of a slave rebellion in the southern states. The Pritzker Military Library hosted this event.
Trying Davis for treason wouldn’t have been hard to do but it wasn’t done. The reason for that is because the PTB all knew Davis did not engage in treason as it was understood in 1860. The following quote is from a speech by Lincoln in 1846.
“Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up, and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable,—most sacred right—a right, which we hope and believe, is to liberate the world. Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government, may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people that can, may revolutionize, and make their own, of so much of the territory as they inhabit. More than this, a majority of any portion of such people may revolutionize, putting down a minority, intermingled with, or near about them, who may oppose their movement.”
Of course Lincoln sang a much different tune in 1861. My point is that the illegality of secession was not a unanimously held view before the war or even after in 1865. I think Davis stood a good chance of winning a treason trial and that is why he wasn’t charged. He wanted a trial but was denied it.
Champ Ferguson
Longstreet was one of the premier officers of the Confederate Army. It is to bad that he was much reviled by the ex-Confederates for his post war association with the Grant administration.
You seemed to have glossed over the part where Lincoln said,”and having the power.” Lincoln was talking about the natural right of revolution, which is what our founding fathers did in 1776. Now there’s no right to win your revolution because country’s, like people, have a natural right to self defense. You gotta have the “power”.
So Lincoln was not singing a different tune in 1860. He was singing the same tune George Washington started when he put down the Whiskey Rebellion and the tune Andrew Jackson sang when he confronted the nullification crisis of 1832.
The reason Davis wasn’t tried is because by the time the federal government got around to being able to try him the civil government in Virginia had been restored. Since the his crimes were committed in Virginia the jury pool would have had to be selected from that area. Which would have meant any jury would likely be composed of former rebels. Here is the letter from the US consul on the case to the US Attorney General explaining this.
Richard Henry Dana, Jr. letter to Attorney General W.M. Evarts
“Sir,
While preparing with yourself, before you assumed your present post, to perform the honorable duty the President had assigned to us, of conducting the trial of Jefferson Davis, you know how much my mind was moved, from the first, by doubts of the expediency of trying him at all. The reasons which prevented my presenting those doubts no longer exist, and they have so ripened into conviction that I feel it my duty to lay them before you in form, as you now hold a post of official responsibly for the proceeding.
After the most serious reflection, I cannot see any good reason why the Government should make a question whether the late civil war was treason, and whether Jefferson Davis took any part in it, and submit those questions to the decision of a petit jury of the vicinage of Richmond at “nisi prius” [”court of original jurisdiction”].
As the Constitution in terms settles the fact that our republic is a state against which treason may be committed, the only constitutional question attending the late war was whether a levying of war against the United States which would otherwise be treason, is relieved of that character by the fact that it took the form of secession from the Union by state authority. In other words the legal issue was, whether secession by a State is a right, making an act legal and obligatory upon the nation which would otherwise have been treason.
This issue I suppose to have been settled by the action of every department of the Government, by the action of the people itself, and by those events which are definitive in the affairs of men.
The Supreme Court in the Prize Cases held, by happily a unanimous opinion, that acts of the States, whether secession ordinances, or in whatever form cast, could not be brought into the cases, as justifications for the war, and had no legal effect on the character of the war, or on the political status of territory or persons or property, and that the line of enemy’s territory was a question of fact, depending upon the line of bayonets of an actual war. The rule in the Prize Cases has been steadily followed in the Supreme Court since, and in the Circuit Courts, without an intimation of a doubt. That the law making and executive departments have treated this secession and war as treason, is a matter of history, as well as is the action of the people in the highest sanction of war.”
“It cannot be doubted that the Circuit Court at the trial will instruct the jury, in conformity with these decisions, that the late attempt to establish and sustain by war an independent empire within the United States was treason. The only question of fact submitted to the Jury will be whether Jefferson Davis took any part in the war. As it is one of the great facts of history that he was its head, civil and military, why should we desire to make a question of it and refer its decision to a jury, with power to find in the negative or affirmative, or to disagree? It is not an appropriate question for the decision of a jury; certainly it is not a fact which a Government should, without great cause, give a jury a chance to ignore.
We know that these indictments are to be tried in what was for five years enemy’s territory, which is not yet restored to the exercise of all its political functions, and where the fires are not extinct. We know that it only requires one dissentient juror to defeat the Government and give Jefferson Davis and his favorers a triumph. Now, is not such a result one which we must include in our calculation of possibilities? Whatever modes may be legally adopted to draw a jury, or to purge it, and whatever the influence of the court or of counsel, we know that a vavorer of treason may get upon the jury. But that is not necessary. A fear of personal violence or social ostracism may be enough to induce one man to withhold his assent from the verdict, especially as be need not come forward personally, nor give a reason, even in the jury-room.
This possible result would be most humiliating to the Government and people of this country, and none the less so from the fact that it would be absurd. The Government would be stopped in its judicial course because it could neither assume nor judicially determine that Jefferson Davis took part in the late civil war. Such a result would also bring into doubt the adequacy of our penal system to deal with such cases as this.
If it were important to secure a verdict as a means of punishing the defendant, the question would present itself differently. But it would be beneath the dignity of the Government and of the issue, to inflict upon him a minor punishment; and, as to a sentence of death, I am sure that, after this lapse of time and after all that has occurred in the interval, the people of the United States would not desire to see it enforced.
In fine, after the fullest consideration, it seems to me that, by pursuing the trial, the Government can get only a re-affirmation by a Circuit Court at “nisi prius” of a rule of public law settled for this country in every way in which such a matter can be settled, only giving to a jury drawn from the region of the rebellion a chance to disregard the law when announced. It gives that jury a like opportunity to ignore the fact that Jefferson Davis took any part in the late civil war. And one man upon the jury can secure these results. The risks of such absurd and discreditable issues of a great state trial are assumed for the sake of a verdict which, if obtained, will settle nothing in law or national practice not now settled, and nothing in fact not now history, while no judgment rendered thereon do we think will be ever executed.
Besides these reasons, and perhaps because of them, I think that the public interest in the trial has ceased among the most earnest and loyal citizens.
If your views and those of the President should be in favor of proceeding with the trial, I am confident that I can do my duty as counsel, to the utmost of my ability and with all zeal. For my doubts are not what the verdict ought to be. On the contrary, I should feel all the more strongly, if the trial is begun, the importance of a victory to the Government, and the necessity of putting forth all powers and using all lawful means to secure it. Still, I feel it my duty to say that if the President should judge otherwise, my position in the cause is at his disposal.”
Lincoln’s let them up easy policy, and his selection of Andrew Johnon as VP, are my two biggest disagreements with him. If I had been President I would have had all rebel leaders tried by military tribunal and then hung by the neck until dead.
“The Impending Crisis of the South” by Hinton Helper.
I regard Longstreet as the equal (if not the — gasp — superior) of Gen. Lee.
Thanks. God Bless you. I have been looking for this for years.
As far as POWs are concerned there should have been a lot more people on both sides charged with those crimes. Major Wirz was a scapegoat.
Easy to scapegoat - foreign born, incompetent & a nasty personality.
Yes,they were all individuals, with many different talents and...conceits. Created by the English class system of royal grants and licenses with in the colonies— the monarchic system of Europe (English style) where one could not rise above a “station” if “assigned” for life and by birth to that station.
Hamilton was a literal bastard from the West Indies. Washington was a Loyalist— who was treated and regarded as a “primitive” colonial lesser by the Lords Proprietors, the King and his Privy Council. So— he desired to separate to rise in stature, but NEVER as king. Jefferson and Franklin— they were inventors,scientists- learned men and....”Frenchified” in the term used of the day.
Hamilton wanted to be powerful— and this is where he and Adams met. Hamilton and the First Bank (in HOCK to stock jobbers in NY and London— his “debt holding” pals- Please,don’t go down the path that “ a Nation needs to establish credit to conduct trade” argument Hamilton made).
Jefferson was correct, and with corrections we now know- so was Hamilton. But Hamilton and his pals WERE the nascent Mil- Industrial complex, who, like their banker pals of Europe found that loaning money as a way to make money is greatly enhanced by creating war over trade and merchant issues-— and in the process creating Sovereign debt (which was and is still the business model of the Rothschild cabal). Jefferson warned Adams of “Hamilton’s men” who claimed General Washington as their Patron, which he was not- they were his staff. And Jefferson’s legendary conflict through his life, came from a classicist agrarian idyllic notion of a nation of yeoman farmers vs. industrial factories that were to come (mechanization eliminating dependency on human labor,slave and indentures or sharecropping renters).
Here is an eloquent well written clip of the conflict— from “Adams” (well worth a full re-watching, well done) here described by some Hamilton lover as “schooling” Jefferson:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=notJuFGXQ9w
And the Hamilton revealed to Adams- over the Jay Treaty and beyond- who he was,during the time of the French Revolution and the position of France vs.Britain contemporaneous, and the roots of Secession (Connecticut’s Secession, not Southern):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaWBs46USqE
Jefferson hated Hamilton (as did Adams who came to learn who Hamilton really was, and also who Aaron Burr was and became). The new Nation created a group of Patriots who had to become Politicians— from a document that did not envision political parties. One would do well to study the history-— read all the correspondence, understanding the enigmas that were these great Patriots. And how “party” creation brought out the worst in Federalists and Anti-Federalists, and how the banking class profited greatly (as they always have tried) from the creeping Socialism of European failed politics intervening as they still do in our internal affairs.
Perhaps,FRiends, the flawed humans that now run our “govt.” (not the bureaucrats who are just... toadies and trough eaters— the DC Aventine contingent imho) but the true Constitutional Patriots can rid us ALL of the pestilence and corruption that is the “bipartisan” Establishment deep state.
There is not a one of the idiotic demonrat party— especially not the human cyber cypher Robert McNamara-like robot of techie Wall Street, Bloomberg (a truly stupid little man)— who has any sense or even concern of our Constution and our Republic to be preserved. There are quite a few trolls here on FR who “show their a@@” more than occasionally and reveal their “ancien” poltical wishes— the leftover Bushie Rino Dinos,and the Clintoonian arkie rockefeller controlled mobsters. The two dynasties still trying to run things for their own profit in the complex Eisenhower warned about. The dnc criminals and the gop-e who should be shut down totally from their petty political mercantilism.
It will take many more like Donald Trump to bring us back to the Founder’s Dream, their Brilliant creation. Without slavery, without parties that created this mess. Without foreign interference and “entanglements” (which Washington entreated his new country to avoid), and without olde visions and institutions counseling us.
Plus being on the losing side. Plus commanding the POW camp with the highest death rate during the rebellion.
Mistreatment of POWs was deliberate on both sides. People on both sides should have paid a price for it.
Agree!
Passions from the war were not going to cool down instantly!
Commandants at Camp Douglas should have paid the same price.
Add in Lincoln’s assassination the passions were only going to be sated by thing like hanging Wirz.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_Douglas_(Chicago)
Learn this!
I consider the foundation of the Constitution as laid on this ground: That "all powers not delegated to the United States, by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States or to the people..." To take a single step beyond the boundaries thus specially drawn around the powers of Congress is to take possession of a boundless field of power, no longer susceptible of any definition.Mr. Jefferson was almost certainly the most intellectual of the Founding Fathers. I challenge anyone to find some other document written by someone else that rivals this or the Declaration of Independence or the Kentucky Resolutions of 1798 in terms of brilliance and clarity....
To lay taxes to provide for the general welfare of the United States, that is to say, "to lay taxes for the purpose of providing for the general welfare." For the laying of taxes is the power, and the general welfare the purpose for which the power is to be exercised. They are not to lay taxes ad libitum for any purpose they please but only to pay the debts or provide for the welfare of the Union. In like manner, they are not to do anything they please to provide for the general welfare but only to lay taxes for that purpose. To consider the latter phrase, not as describing the purpose of the first, but as giving a distinct and independent power to do any act they please, which might be for the good of the Union, would render all the preceding and subsequent enumerations of power completely useless.
It would reduce the whole instrument to a single phrase, that of instituting a Congress with power to do whatever would be for the good of the United States; and, as they would be the sole judges of the good or evil, it would be also a power to do whatever evil they please.
... Thomas Jefferson to George Washington letter, dated Feb 15, 1791
ML/NJ
Hamilton & Jefferson hated each other so much that they both engaged in near seditious communications with potentially hostile foreign powers (UK & France) trying to undermine the other.
Indeed he was-— as Col.Wirz was...Swiss. Something never discussed (as the victors write the history) was the needless deprivations of Point Lookout or Johnson’s Island- the Union had the money and supplies to treat prisoner’s decently— but the people who were in that command (and indeed the very corrupt Sec. Stanton himself lining his pockets- an evil man), were corrupt grafters leaving prisoners to horrible condition and doing a brisk trade in humans, misery, food and supplies. These were never (rarely) exposed by Provost Marshal system.
By far the worst, never discussed at all was Camp Douglas— in Chicago— the largest and most corrupt hell-hole in the Union POW system. Chicago— producing the prison town we know today filled with corrupt democrat pols and their mob pals.
The fact is— that Anaconda (the Union navy Blockade of the South) worked quite well,and early on produced deprivations for the CSA that required re-distribution of what they had, and POWs got essentially the same privations that the average CSA soldiers did (no shoes, no food, no clothes). There are documented cases of CSA prison personnel being fully disciplined as there are of Union personnel done the same for POW abuse. The South was starving, and Sherman didn’t help.
Camp Sumter was created in February 1864....late in the war and out of a preponderance of Union POWs captured in the winning Union campaigns. Sherman’s March to the Sea began in November 1864 until Dec. 21. notably bypassing Andersonville (overfilled beyond capacity and the horrors there as much caused by Sherman’s actions as Anaconda and the waging of Civilian war crimes by his “bummers”. The first use of total war).
The reason why Confederate leaders weren't tried for treason is that by 1868 Andre Johnson had pardoned them all.
There was a simple remedy for that.
The POW question during the rebellion does not reflect well on either side. One of the reasons why so many myths have cropped up surrounding it.
Lest you are making some simplistic “righteousness” argument about Sherman and the motivations of most Union commanders, you should know about a major example of not giving a damn about human slave victims of his campaign. See: Ebeneezer Creek. There was not a “simple” remedy to what he was doing.
Sherman sloughed off his senior responsibility onto his corps commander Jefferson C. Davis. There was starvation everywhere, caused by his scum thugs who later served under him in the Indian campaigns (where the worst of the Union army was sent, people like Sheridan, a real nasty piece of work with little self-restraint).
Sherman’s post war apologias, and his later cheered actions in the Indian wars, try as he might to make it sound good-— wasn’t. Take a look at a drunk schizoid in the photo of Sherman— war attracts all kinds, as do “revolutions” (Sherman’s eyes have every bit of the murderous look of the communist “saint” Che Guevara- a true psychopathic killer).
Not myth, FRiend. Family history, as in ‘were there’ in GA. You massage facts of deprivation with “excuses”, which is not the case. In 1864 there was continual deprivations, and the administration of prisoners suffered in this reality, as much from greed, corruption and disdain, as in desperation.
Glad if you would acknowledge that the prisoner exchange, initiated by Wirz in July 1864 (not under any orders, and caught hell for it) sending 5 prisoners with a prisoner signed petition to the Union to reinstate the prisoner exchange (and empty Camp Sumter), was absolutely refused by Union (specifically Sec. Stanton- think of that!).
After the fall of Atlanta, all Sumter prisoners who were well enough to be moved were sent to Millen, GA, and Florence, SC, as a good will gesture and humanity. Once Sherman began the March to the Sea, having refused these survivors for exchange- they were all returned to the horrors of Camp Sumter. All of this gets overlooked, and virtually no history of the Union abuses which the Sanitary Commission tried to abate, to no avail.
Lincoln issued General Orders 252 suspendeding the Dix–Hill Cartel of prisoner exchange until the Confederate forces agreed to treat black prisoners the same as white prisoners- a particularly cruel and highly manipulative Political calculation by the oft used name of Peace (see:Lincoln Brigade- the Communists in the Spanish Civil War- always fascinated at the abuse of Lincolns name by commies- even today).
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