If not taxes, then HOW?

self ^ | November 4, 2019 | knarf

[knarf]

I'm having difficulty formulating my failing brain.

Before 1913 we operated just fine (it seems) without taxes but (and so the meme goes), now everything operates BECAUSE of taxes.

[MortMan]

After 1913, politicians knew they could buy votes with taxpayer money.

Public funded bribery.

[RedMonqey]

To better feed the welfare state, the progressives(just like today)passes the first federal income tax in the WW1 era.

They, too, did it because they believe tariffs were unfair to the poor and instead favored a “progressive’ income tax.

Which they couldn’t do because they were direct taxes and thus had to be apportioned among the states on the basis of population.
So Congress passed the Sixteenth Amendment to make taxes “fair” and Congress promised only to tax the rich.

[Cobra64]

Here ya go...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariff_in_United_States_history

[Cobra64]

You beat me to it. 😁

[blueplum]

*How did this transition occur and when?*

1638 Massachusetts. The first printing of paper money in 1690, called ‘bills of public credit,’ sealed the deal.

Prior to independence, and talking just people, property taxes (called ‘quitrents’) were paid to the Crown, so we have always had taxes. Most town bills were paid by donations - the highest donors awarded the best seats in church. These donations paid for legal proceedings, defense from Indians, surveying and roadbuilding, taking care of the indigent, church and schools, etc. As towns grew, donations became mandatory of everyone. Especially in corporate colonies, who used the rules of passing costs on to the shareholders, in this case, settlers, to levy taxes. Massachusetts was the first to enact a poll (head) tax and not only a tax on land holdings but a tax on all belongings right down to the last bridle and saddle (faculty tax). That was followed by a tax on all laborers working on the landowner’s land, and on their productivity.
More:
https://www.hoover.org/research/colonial-roots-american-taxation-1607-1700

[Ouderkirk]

As someone here’s tagline says: the 13 amendment abolished Slavery and the 16th Amendment reinstated it.

[ProgressingAmerica]

"A graduated income tax of the proper type would be a desirable feature of Federal taxation, and it is to be hoped that one may be devised which the Supreme Court will declare constitutional. The inheritance tax, however, is both a far better method of taxation, and far more important for the purpose of having the fortunes of the country bear in proportion to their increase in size a corresponding increase and burden of taxation.

Theodore Roosevelt - State of the Union 1907 - December 3rd, 1907

http://www.let.rug.nl/usa/presidents/theodore-roosevelt/state-of-the-union-1907.php

[ProgressingAmerica]

The 16th Amendment was not Wilson’s.

[Olog-hai]

Yes; it dates back to Taft’s presidency, but Wilson was instrumental in pushing it through at least when it came to the states, or making the country believe it was passed according to Benson and Beckman.

[abb]

A very important component of today’s runaway income taxation. Withholding.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Current_Tax_Payment_Act_of_1943

[spintreebob]

Precisely, the FED and IRS need each other.

[CodeToad]

“Actually prior to 1913 debts were rare - usually just in war time.”

Actually, not true. We have ALWAYS had a national debt. Always.

Year Debt
1791 $75,463,477
1792 $77,227,925
1793 $80,358,634
1794 $78,427,405
1795 $80,747,587
1796 $83,762,172
1797 $82,064,479
1798 $79,228,529
1799 $78,408,670
1800 $82,976,294
1801 $83,038,051
1802 $80,712,632
1803 $77,054,686
1804 $86,427,121
1805 $82,312,151
1806 $75,723,271
1807 $69,218,399
1808 $65,196,318
1809 $57,023,192
1810 $53,173,218
1811 $48,005,588
1812 $45,209,738
1813 $55,962,828
1814 $81,487,846
1815 $99,833,660
1816 $127,334,934
1817 $123,491,965
1818 $103,466,634
1819 $95,529,648
1820 $91,015,566
1821 $89,987,428
1822 $93,546,677
1823 $90,875,877
1824 $90,269,778
1825 $83,788,433
1826 $81,054,060
1827 $73,987,357
1828 $67,475,044
1829 $58,421,414
1830 $48,565,407
1831 $39,123,192
1832 $24,322,235
1833 $7,001,699
1834 $4,760,082
1835 $33,733
1836 $37,513
1837 $336,958
1838 $3,308,124
1839 $10,434,221
1840 $3,573,344
1841 $5,250,876
1842 $13,594,481
1843 $32,742,922
1844 $23,461,653
1845 $15,925,303
1846 $15,550,203
1847 $38,826,535
1848 $47,044,862
1849 $63,061,859
1850 $63,452,774
1851 $68,304,796
1852 $66,199,342
1853 $59,803,118
1854 $42,242,222
1855 $35,586,957
1856 $31,972,538
1857 $28,699,832
1858 $44,911,881
1859 $58,496,838
1860 $64,842,288
1861 $90,580,874
1862 $524,176,412
1863 $1,119,772,139
1864 $1,815,784,371
1865 $2,680,647,870
1866 $2,773,236,174
1867 $2,678,126,104
1868 $2,611,687,851
1869 $2,588,452,214
1870 $2,480,672,428
1871 $2,353,211,332
1872 $2,253,251,329
1873 $2,234,482,993
1874 $2,251,690,468
1875 $2,232,284,532
1876 $2,180,395,067
1877 $2,205,301,392
1878 $2,256,205,893
1879 $2,349,567,482
1880 $2,120,415,371
1881 $2,069,013,570
1882 $1,918,312,994
1883 $1,884,171,728
1884 $1,830,528,924
1885 $1,863,964,873
1886 $1,775,063,014
1887 $1,657,602,593
1888 $1,692,858,985
1889 $1,619,052,922
1890 $1,552,140,205
1891 $1,545,996,592
1892 $1,588,464,145
1893 $1,545,985,686
1894 $1,632,253,637
1895 $1,676,120,983
1896 $1,769,840,323
1897 $1,817,672,666
1898 $1,796,531,996
1899 $1,991,927,307
1900 $2,136,961,092
1901 $2,143,326,934
1902 $2,158,610,446
1903 $2,202,464,782
1904 $2,264,003,585
1905 $2,274,615,064
1906 $2,337,161,839
1907 $2,457,188,062
1908 $2,626,806,272
1909 $2,639,546,241
1910 $2,652,665,838
1911 $2,765,600,607
1912 $2,868,373,874
1913 $2,916,204,914
1914 $2,912,499,269
1915 $3,058,136,873
1916 $3,609,244,262
1917 $5,717,770,280
1918 $14,592,161,414
1919 $27,390,970,113
1920 $25,952,456,406
1921 $23,977,450,553
1922 $22,963,381,708
1923 $22,349,707,365
1924 $21,250,812,989
1925 $20,516,193,888
1926 $19,643,216,315
1927 $18,511,906,932
1928 $17,604,293,201
1929 $16,931,088,484
1930 $16,185,309,831
1931 $16,801,281,492
1932 $19,487,002,444
1933 $22,538,672,560
1934 $27,053,141,414
1935 $28,700,892,625
1936 $33,778,543,494
1937 $36,424,613,732
1938 $37,164,740,315
1939 $40,439,532,411
1940 $42,967,531,038
1941 $48,961,443,536
1942 $72,422,445,116
1943 $136,696,090,330
1944 $201,003,387,221
1945 $258,682,187,410
1946 $269,422,099,173
1947 $258,286,383,109
1948 $252,292,246,513
1949 $252,770,359,860
1950 $257,357,352,351
1951 $255,221,976,815
1952 $259,105,178,785
1953 $266,071,061,639
1954 $271,259,599,108
1955 $274,374,222,802
1956 $272,750,813,649
1957 $270,527,171,896
1958 $276,343,217,746
1959 $284,705,907,078
1960 $286,330,760,848
1961 $288,970,938,610
1962 $298,200,822,721
1963 $305,859,632,996
1964 $311,712,899,257
1965 $317,273,898,984
1966 $319,907,087,795
1967 $326,220,937,795
1968 $347,578,406,426
1969 $353,720,253,841
1970 $370,918,706,950
1971 $398,129,744,456
1972 $427,260,460,941
1973 $458,141,605,312
1974 $475,059,815,732
1975 $533,189,000,000
1976 $620,433,000,000
1977 $698,840,000,000
1978 $771,544,000,000
1979 $826,519,000,000
1980 $907,701,000,000
1981 $997,855,000,000
1982 $1,142,034,000,000
1983 $1,377,210,000,000
1984 $1,572,266,000,000
1985 $1,823,103,000,000
1986 $2,125,302,616,658
1987 $2,350,276,890,953
1988 $2,602,337,712,041
1989 $2,857,430,960,187
1990 $3,233,313,451,777
1991 $3,665,303,351,697
1992 $4,064,620,655,522
1993 $4,411,488,883,139
1994 $4,692,749,910,013
1995 $4,973,982,900,709
1996 $5,224,810,939,136
1997 $5,413,146,011,397
1998 $5,526,193,008,898
1999 $5,656,270,901,615
2000 $5,674,178,209,887
2001 $5,807,463,412,200
2002 $6,228,235,965,597
2003 $6,783,231,062,744
2004 $7,379,052,696,330
2005 $7,932,709,661,724
2006 $8,506,973,899,215
2007 $9,007,653,372,262
2008 $10,240,000,000,000
2009 $12,311,349,677,512
2010 $14,025,215,218,708
2011 $14,790,340,328,557
2012 $16,066,241,407,386
2013 $17,351,970,784,950
2014 $18,141,444,135,563

[PeterPrinciple]

What happened in 1835 and 1836?

[CodeToad]

In 1835, President Andrew Jackson sold national lands and paid off the debt. The year ended in nearly no debt.

[ProgressingAmerica]

It goes back further than Taft, but could you provide me some specifics about how Wilson was “instrumental”? Is there a quote or a specific series of rallies or something else?

[TIElniff]

Is there any truth in the assertion that the 1913 tax was supposed to be an excuse tax applicable only to government workers and contractors? (Asking you because you seem to know a lot about it!)

[TIElniff]

Excuse = excuse

[TIElniff]

Trying again= excuse = excise

[scrabblehack]

Brain fart - I meant deficit.
63 out of 122 years showed a surplus - so yes, deficits were more common than I remembered, but even so over half the time there was a surplus. It was even higher prior to 1892.

[CodeToad]

Deficits were the following. Minus are surpluses, shown in () as well for the dollar figure.

Year Debt Difference %
1791 $75,463,477 $1 0.0%
1792 $77,227,925 $1,764,448 2.3%
1793 $80,358,634 $3,130,709 4.1%
1794 $78,427,405 $(1,931,229) -2.4%
1795 $80,747,587 $2,320,183 3.0%
1796 $83,762,172 $3,014,585 3.7%
1797 $82,064,479 $(1,697,693) -2.0%
1798 $79,228,529 $(2,835,950) -3.5%
1799 $78,408,670 $(819,859) -1.0%
1800 $82,976,294 $4,567,625 5.8%
1801 $83,038,051 $61,756 0.1%
1802 $80,712,632 $(2,325,419) -2.8%
1803 $77,054,686 $(3,657,946) -4.5%
1804 $86,427,121 $9,372,434 12.2%
1805 $82,312,151 $(4,114,970) -4.8%
1806 $75,723,271 $(6,588,880) -8.0%
1807 $69,218,399 $(6,504,872) -8.6%
1808 $65,196,318 $(4,022,081) -5.8%
1809 $57,023,192 $(8,173,126) -12.5%
1810 $53,173,218 $(3,849,975) -6.8%
1811 $48,005,588 $(5,167,630) -9.7%
1812 $45,209,738 $(2,795,850) -5.8%
1813 $55,962,828 $10,753,090 23.8%
1814 $81,487,846 $25,525,019 45.6%
1815 $99,833,660 $18,345,814 22.5%
1816 $127,334,934 $27,501,274 27.5%
1817 $123,491,965 $(3,842,969) -3.0%
1818 $103,466,634 $(20,025,331) -16.2%
1819 $95,529,648 $(7,936,986) -7.7%
1820 $91,015,566 $(4,514,082) -4.7%
1821 $89,987,428 $(1,028,138) -1.1%
1822 $93,546,677 $3,559,249 4.0%
1823 $90,875,877 $(2,670,800) -2.9%
1824 $90,269,778 $(606,100) -0.7%
1825 $83,788,433 $(6,481,345) -7.2%
1826 $81,054,060 $(2,734,373) -3.3%
1827 $73,987,357 $(7,066,703) -8.7%
1828 $67,475,044 $(6,512,313) -8.8%
1829 $58,421,414 $(9,053,630) -13.4%
1830 $48,565,407 $(9,856,007) -16.9%
1831 $39,123,192 $(9,442,215) -19.4%
1832 $24,322,235 $(14,800,957) -37.8%
1833 $7,001,699 $(17,320,536) -71.2%
1834 $4,760,082 $(2,241,617) -32.0%
1835 $33,733 $(4,726,349) -99.3%
1836 $37,513 $3,780 11.2%
1837 $336,958 $299,445 798.2%
1838 $3,308,124 $2,971,166 881.8%
1839 $10,434,221 $7,126,097 215.4%
1840 $3,573,344 $(6,860,877) -65.8%
1841 $5,250,876 $1,677,532 46.9%
1842 $13,594,481 $8,343,605 158.9%
1843 $32,742,922 $19,148,441 140.9%
1844 $23,461,653 $(9,281,270) -28.3%
1845 $15,925,303 $(7,536,349) -32.1%
1846 $15,550,203 $(375,100) -2.4%
1847 $38,826,535 $23,276,332 149.7%
1848 $47,044,862 $8,218,327 21.2%
1849 $63,061,859 $16,016,996 34.0%
1850 $63,452,774 $390,915 0.6%
1851 $68,304,796 $4,852,022 7.6%
1852 $66,199,342 $(2,105,454) -3.1%
1853 $59,803,118 $(6,396,224) -9.7%
1854 $42,242,222 $(17,560,895) -29.4%
1855 $35,586,957 $(6,655,266) -15.8%
1856 $31,972,538 $(3,614,419) -10.2%
1857 $28,699,832 $(3,272,706) -10.2%
1858 $44,911,881 $16,212,049 56.5%
1859 $58,496,838 $13,584,957 30.2%
1860 $64,842,288 $6,345,450 10.8%
1861 $90,580,874 $25,738,586 39.7%
1862 $524,176,412 $433,595,538 478.7%
1863 $1,119,772,139 $595,595,727 113.6%
1864 $1,815,784,371 $696,012,232 62.2%
1865 $2,680,647,870 $864,863,499 47.6%
1866 $2,773,236,174 $92,588,304 3.5%
1867 $2,678,126,104 $(95,110,070) -3.4%
1868 $2,611,687,851 $(66,438,253) -2.5%
1869 $2,588,452,214 $(23,235,637) -0.9%
1870 $2,480,672,428 $(107,779,786) -4.2%
1871 $2,353,211,332 $(127,461,095) -5.1%
1872 $2,253,251,329 $(99,960,004) -4.2%
1873 $2,234,482,993 $(18,768,336) -0.8%
1874 $2,251,690,468 $17,207,475 0.8%
1875 $2,232,284,532 $(19,405,936) -0.9%
1876 $2,180,395,067 $(51,889,465) -2.3%
1877 $2,205,301,392 $24,906,325 1.1%
1878 $2,256,205,893 $50,904,500 2.3%
1879 $2,349,567,482 $93,361,590 4.1%
1880 $2,120,415,371 $(229,152,111) -9.8%
1881 $2,069,013,570 $(51,401,801) -2.4%
1882 $1,918,312,994 $(150,700,576) -7.3%
1883 $1,884,171,728 $(34,141,266) -1.8%
1884 $1,830,528,924 $(53,642,805) -2.8%
1885 $1,863,964,873 $33,435,950 1.8%
1886 $1,775,063,014 $(88,901,859) -4.8%
1887 $1,657,602,593 $(117,460,421) -6.6%
1888 $1,692,858,985 $35,256,392 2.1%
1889 $1,619,052,922 $(73,806,062) -4.4%
1890 $1,552,140,205 $(66,912,718) -4.1%
1891 $1,545,996,592 $(6,143,613) -0.4%
1892 $1,588,464,145 $42,467,553 2.7%
1893 $1,545,985,686 $(42,478,459) -2.7%
1894 $1,632,253,637 $86,267,951 5.6%
1895 $1,676,120,983 $43,867,347 2.7%
1896 $1,769,840,323 $93,719,340 5.6%
1897 $1,817,672,666 $47,832,343 2.7%
1898 $1,796,531,996 $(21,140,670) -1.2%
1899 $1,991,927,307 $195,395,311 10.9%
1900 $2,136,961,092 $145,033,785 7.3%
1901 $2,143,326,934 $6,365,842 0.3%
1902 $2,158,610,446 $15,283,512 0.7%
1903 $2,202,464,782 $43,854,336 2.0%
1904 $2,264,003,585 $61,538,803 2.8%
1905 $2,274,615,064 $10,611,479 0.5%
1906 $2,337,161,839 $62,546,775 2.7%
1907 $2,457,188,062 $120,026,223 5.1%
1908 $2,626,806,272 $169,618,210 6.9%
1909 $2,639,546,241 $12,739,970 0.5%
1910 $2,652,665,838 $13,119,597 0.5%
1911 $2,765,600,607 $112,934,769 4.3%
1912 $2,868,373,874 $102,773,267 3.7%
1913 $2,916,204,914 $47,831,040 1.7%
1914 $2,912,499,269 $(3,705,645) -0.1%
1915 $3,058,136,873 $145,637,604 5.0%
1916 $3,609,244,262 $551,107,389 18.0%
1917 $5,717,770,280 $2,108,526,017 58.4%
1918 $14,592,161,414 $8,874,391,134 155.2%
1919 $27,390,970,113 $12,798,808,699 87.7%
1920 $25,952,456,406 $(1,438,513,707) -5.3%
1921 $23,977,450,553 $(1,975,005,854) -7.6%
1922 $22,963,381,708 $(1,014,068,844) -4.2%
1923 $22,349,707,365 $(613,674,343) -2.7%
1924 $21,250,812,989 $(1,098,894,376) -4.9%
1925 $20,516,193,888 $(734,619,102) -3.5%
1926 $19,643,216,315 $(872,977,573) -4.3%
1927 $18,511,906,932 $(1,131,309,383) -5.8%
1928 $17,604,293,201 $(907,613,730) -4.9%
1929 $16,931,088,484 $(673,204,717) -3.8%
1930 $16,185,309,831 $(745,778,653) -4.4%
1931 $16,801,281,492 $615,971,660 3.8%
1932 $19,487,002,444 $2,685,720,952 16.0%
1933 $22,538,672,560 $3,051,670,116 15.7%
1934 $27,053,141,414 $4,514,468,854 20.0%
1935 $28,700,892,625 $1,647,751,210 6.1%
1936 $33,778,543,494 $5,077,650,869 17.7%
1937 $36,424,613,732 $2,646,070,239 7.8%
1938 $37,164,740,315 $740,126,583 2.0%
1939 $40,439,532,411 $3,274,792,096 8.8%
1940 $42,967,531,038 $2,527,998,627 6.3%
1941 $48,961,443,536 $5,993,912,498 13.9%
1942 $72,422,445,116 $23,461,001,581 47.9%
1943 $136,696,090,330 $64,273,645,214 88.7%
1944 $201,003,387,221 $64,307,296,891 47.0%
1945 $258,682,187,410 $57,678,800,189 28.7%
1946 $269,422,099,173 $10,739,911,763 4.2%
1947 $258,286,383,109 $(11,135,716,065) -4.1%
1948 $252,292,246,513 $(5,994,136,596) -2.3%
1949 $252,770,359,860 $478,113,347 0.2%
1950 $257,357,352,351 $4,586,992,491 1.8%
1951 $255,221,976,815 $(2,135,375,536) -0.8%
1952 $259,105,178,785 $3,883,201,971 1.5%
1953 $266,071,061,639 $6,965,882,853 2.7%
1954 $271,259,599,108 $5,188,537,469 2.0%
1955 $274,374,222,802 $3,114,623,694 1.1%
1956 $272,750,813,649 $(1,623,409,153) -0.6%
1957 $270,527,171,896 $(2,223,641,753) -0.8%
1958 $276,343,217,746 $5,816,045,850 2.1%
1959 $284,705,907,078 $8,362,689,332 3.0%
1960 $286,330,760,848 $1,624,853,770 0.6%
1961 $288,970,938,610 $2,640,177,762 0.9%
1962 $298,200,822,721 $9,229,884,111 3.2%
1963 $305,859,632,996 $7,658,810,276 2.6%
1964 $311,712,899,257 $5,853,266,261 1.9%
1965 $317,273,898,984 $5,560,999,726 1.8%
1966 $319,907,087,795 $2,633,188,812 0.8%
1967 $326,220,937,795 $6,313,849,999 2.0%
1968 $347,578,406,426 $21,357,468,631 6.5%
1969 $353,720,253,841 $6,141,847,416 1.8%
1970 $370,918,706,950 $17,198,453,109 4.9%
1971 $398,129,744,456 $27,211,037,506 7.3%
1972 $427,260,460,941 $29,130,716,485 7.3%
1973 $458,141,605,312 $30,881,144,372 7.2%
1974 $475,059,815,732 $16,918,210,419 3.7%
1975 $533,189,000,000 $58,129,184,268 12.2%
1976 $620,433,000,000 $87,244,000,000 16.4%
1977 $698,840,000,000 $78,407,000,000 12.6%
1978 $771,544,000,000 $72,704,000,000 10.4%
1979 $826,519,000,000 $54,975,000,000 7.1%
1980 $907,701,000,000 $81,182,000,000 9.8%
1981 $997,855,000,000 $90,154,000,000 9.9%
1982 $1,142,034,000,000 $144,179,000,000 14.4%
1983 $1,377,210,000,000 $235,176,000,000 20.6%
1984 $1,572,266,000,000 $195,056,000,000 14.2%
1985 $1,823,103,000,000 $250,837,000,000 16.0%
1986 $2,125,302,616,658 $302,199,616,658 16.6%
1987 $2,350,276,890,953 $224,974,274,295 10.6%
1988 $2,602,337,712,041 $252,060,821,088 10.7%
1989 $2,857,430,960,187 $255,093,248,146 9.8%
1990 $3,233,313,451,777 $375,882,491,590 13.2%
1991 $3,665,303,351,697 $431,989,899,920 13.4%
1992 $4,064,620,655,522 $399,317,303,825 10.9%
1993 $4,411,488,883,139 $346,868,227,618 8.5%
1994 $4,692,749,910,013 $281,261,026,874 6.4%
1995 $4,973,982,900,709 $281,232,990,696 6.0%
1996 $5,224,810,939,136 $250,828,038,426 5.0%
1997 $5,413,146,011,397 $188,335,072,262 3.6%
1998 $5,526,193,008,898 $113,046,997,500 2.1%
1999 $5,656,270,901,615 $130,077,892,718 2.4%
2000 $5,674,178,209,887 $17,907,308,271 0.3%
2001 $5,807,463,412,200 $133,285,202,313 2.3%
2002 $6,228,235,965,597 $420,772,553,397 7.2%
2003 $6,783,231,062,744 $554,995,097,146 8.9%
2004 $7,379,052,696,330 $595,821,633,587 8.8%
2005 $7,932,709,661,724 $553,656,965,393 7.5%
2006 $8,506,973,899,215 $574,264,237,492 7.2%
2007 $9,007,653,372,262 $500,679,473,047 5.9%
2008 $10,240,000,000,000 $1,232,346,627,738 13.7%
2009 $12,311,349,677,512 $2,071,349,677,512 20.2%
2010 $14,025,215,218,708 $1,713,865,541,196 13.9%
2011 $14,790,340,328,557 $765,125,109,849 5.5%
2012 $16,066,241,407,386 $1,275,901,078,829 8.6%
2013 $17,351,970,784,950 $1,285,729,377,564 8.0%
2014 $18,141,444,135,563 $789,473,350,613 4.5%