Affixing blame for the Mountain Meadows Massacre

Patheos ^ | SEPTEMBER 21, 2019 | DAN PETERSON

[robowombat]

Affixing blame for the Mountain Meadows Massacre SEPTEMBER 21, 2019 BY DAN PETERSON

This is not a photo of the Mountain Meadows Massacre. We have none. So I went for a cheerier note. This is a photo (by James Jordan) of director Mark Goodman working just a few days ago with extras in Old Sturbridge Village, Massachusetts, for the “Witnesses” film project.

I note that I’m being accused by a small handful of people of blaming the Mountain Meadows Massacre on “anti-Mormons.”

First, two preliminary observations:

1) When I write anything for the public, at least some people will misread it in the most negative way that they possibly can.

2) The Mountain Meadows Massacre is, for quite manifest reasons, a controversial topic. And, accordingly, it’s one that some people are strongly inclined to exploit for ideological ends.

Of course, I don’t blame the Massacre on “anti-Mormons.” I blame it on the people who did it.

But the perpetrators interest me very particularly because, overwhelmingly, they do not seem to have been conventionally bad people – thugs, murderers, and the like – either before September 1857 or, for the most part, thereafter.

So the question that puzzles me (in this case as in more than a few others) is, What makes ordinary, decent people commit so extraordinarily horrific a crime?

Reading the Oxford book Massacre at Mountain Meadows, by Ron Walker and Rick Turley and Glen Leonard, when it first came out many years ago, I felt as if I were seeing a Greek tragedy unfold. There was a certain inexorable logic to what ultimately happened – a horrible logic, obviously, but one in which it made a certain degree of sense, after one bad step had been taken, to take the next one. I found myself wanting to scream “No! Stop!” while knowing what the outcome was inevitably going to be.

To me, if we see the people who committed the Mountain Meadows Massacre as utterly unlike ourselves, we’re not only falsifying history (and not merely in the sense that they, like me and many of my readers, claimed membership in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) but refusing to see a lesson (or, more aptly, lessons) in what happened. If they were something of a different species, their cautionary tale can have little if anything to teach us.

In order to understand what they did, we need to understand what factors acted upon them. And, beyond any reasonable dispute, one of the most important of those factors was a prior history of persecution and forced migration.

That doesn’t mean that the Missouri mobs bear legal and moral responsibility for the Mountain Meadows Massacre any more than an abusive father is responsible for the violent acts committed much later by a criminal son. But neither are the two unrelated. Human evils ramify. They do damage, among other things to human psyches.

The Mountain Meadows Massacre certainly isn’t the Restoration’s finest hour. It’s anything but faith-promoting. But it shouldn’t be exploited as a weapon against the Church or against religious belief, either. It’s too complex to be reducible to a self-serving slogan on a partisan bumper sticker.

[Elsie]

Jim Beam: It's good to wash down a steak; or even warsh down a Mormon!



D&C 89:7 
And, again, strong drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your bodies.

[Elsie]

No.

Is believing that JS was a prophet necessary??

[Elsie]

So is believing in the Athenasian Creed necesary to be saved?

Is being a TBM necessary to attain the highest level of LDS heaven?

[teppe]

Sorry Elsie ... I believe in the biblical God the Eternal Father and his Son Jesus Christ....

....you believe in a Creed where Jesus prays to himself.

God DOES NOT HAVE A MULTIPLE PERSONALITY DISORDER!!!!!

[teppe]

God does not have a multiple personality disorder called the “Trinity”

[teppe]

OK .... then who wrote the Athenasian Creed?

Clearly someone who wanted to steer Christianity away from the Bible.

[Elsie]

Ok; you've made it very clear that you do NOT want to address the problems of Mormonism, but wish to continually harp on problems with a 'creed'.

It's too bad you will not take on the problems with YOUR creed first.

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Here is MORMONism's own creed:

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Articles of Faith

The Articles of Faith outline 13 basic points of belief of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

The Prophet Joseph Smith first wrote them in a letter to John Wentworth, a newspaper editor, in response to

Mr. Wentworth's request to know what members of the Church believed.

They were subsequently published in Church periodicals.

They are now regarded as scripture and included in the Pearl of Great Price.

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http://wordcentral.com/cgi-bin/student?creed

 

One entry found for creed.Main Entry: creed 
Pronunciation: krd
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English crede "creed," from Old English crda (same meaning), from Latin credo, literally, "I believe" (used as the first words in many creeds), from credere "to believe, trust, entrust" --related to CREDENTIALS, CREDIT, INCREDIBLE
1 : a statement of the basic beliefs of a religious faith
2 : a set of guiding principles or beliefs

 

 

 

THE ARTICLES OF FAITH
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
History of the Church, Vol. 4, pp. 535—541

 

 

1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
   
2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.
   
3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
   
4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
   
5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
   
6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
   
7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
   
8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
   
9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
   
10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
    
11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
    
13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Joseph Smith

 

 

 

and so forth.   REALLY??

 

 

 

 

 

[Elsie]

If your wrong about your definition of God the Father and Jesus Christ..... your wrong about everything.

Hold this thought.

[Elsie]

OK .... then who wrote the Athenasian Creed?

Clearly someone who wanted to steer Christianity away from the Bible.

We KNOW who wrote the MORMON Creed!!

Clearly someone who wanted to steer Christianity away from the Bible.

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8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

[Elsie]

Folks; THIS is what this thread is about: NOT the nature of GOD.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Meadows_Massacre

[teppe]

There is no Mormon Creed .... there’s not even a Mormon Church.

You reject the Bible to believe in an anonymous Creed wherein Christ prays to himself

Please take out the 2x4 in your own eye before you try to pull the sliver out of mine.

[teppe]

There is no Church called ‘Mormonism’. Your FAKE NEWS!!!

[teppe]

According to you ... Jesus Christ is the same being as God the Father ...right?

Consequently, it follows that you believe that Jesus Christ prayed to himself..... Wierd! (and not biblical)

[Elsie]

You reject the Bible to believe in an anonymous Creed wherein Christ prays to himself

You accept the book of Mormon where a headless guy...

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The Book of Ether

Chapter 15:30-31

 30 And it came to pass that when Coriantumr had leaned upon his sword, that he rested a little, he smote off the head of Shiz.

 31 And it came to pass that after he had smitten off the head of Shiz, that Shiz raised up on his hands and ^afell; and after that he had struggled for breath, he died.

[Elsie]

There is no Mormon Creed .... there’s not even a Mormon Church.

You have totally rejected everything posted in #347; even the very DEFINITION of a creed.

Since you are continuing to act like Baghdad Bob on crack; I doubt that even lurkers are still reading this thread to see if you are ever going to make sense; so I'll let you think you have won and slink away.

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But PLEASE; try to do enough to get a valid TR card.

Eternity awaits you.