Siege at Ruby Ridge: The Forgotten History of the ATF Shootout That Started a Militia Movement

Ammo.com ^ | August 21, 2019 | Ammo.com

[walkingdead]

The irony of the federal government’s desire to obtain informants within the Aryan Nations is that different branches of federal law enforcement and intelligence gathering occupied five of the six key positions in the organization. This means that the Aryan Nations were effectively a government-run shop, with agents spying on each other to ensure the integrity of an investigation – into an organization almost entirely run by the federal government.

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But they really really needed Weaver as an informant......

[Zhang Fei]

[And this is why I lay the blame at Horiuchi’s feet. He broke the cardinal rule of shooting: be sure of your target. ]

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The moment they were ordered to scale the castle walls, so to speak, the die was cast. Given what the commanders knew about the occupants of the structure, there’s no way this raid should have been mounted. One of classic tenets of warfare is that it is always better to attack supply lines, or lie in ambush (i.e. via traffic stop) than assault a fixed fortification. That Horiuchi was placed in a position where he had a split second to figure out whether to neutralize someone he saw as a threat, moments after a Federal Marshal was killed, was not his doing.

Another problem was the special ROE for this assignment, which made the area a virtual free-fire zone, in defiance of traditional FBI ROE. That, again, was something for which the commander(s) should have been fired.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge#Special_ROE_and_sniper/observer_deployment

[Zhang Fei]

[Well, it wasn’t a simple traffic stop.

It was set up to look like a simple traffic stop, but designed to drive the victim up the road to an ambush.]

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Every unannounced road block is an ambush by another name. I say it’s simple because it’s really a piece of cake compared to assaulting a home.

[walkingdead]

A simple traffic stop would have gotten Weaver into custody. And that was how they went after the people doing the Bundy thing in Oregon.

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You do realize that LaVoy stopped further up the road right. But they did not take him during that stop did they. No they pushed him on. Ever wonder why? Because he had not made it to the ambush location.

Roadblock, on a corner, complete with recently cleared branches and obstructions for fields of fire. Yea just another traffic stop.....

[Zhang Fei]

[You do realize that LaVoy stopped further up the road right. But they did not take him during that stop did they. No they pushed him on. Ever wonder why? Because he had not made it to the ambush location.

Roadblock, on a corner, complete with recently cleared branches and obstructions for fields of fire. Yea just another traffic stop.....]

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My point isn’t that the Feds were the good guys or they weren’t looking for an excuse to kill some of the people involved with the Bundys. The point here is that if you don’t want a lot of collateral damage or put law enforcement personnel at risk unnecessarily, you get your quarry while they’re on the move, instead of at their residence, which they’ve had an opportunity to fortify. You ambush them instead of letting them ambush you. The very fact of your superior tactical position means you can keep your casualties and the casualties of the people you are looking to apprehend low. As it stands, Finicum was the only person hurt. Compare that to the disaster at Ruby Ridge and the literal conflagration at Waco. They could have gotten their man without killing a bunch of other people.

[walkingdead]

your whole argument assumes the accused are looking to kill police officers. There is absolutely no proof that anyone at the refuge in Oregon was planning on that.

And that is the problem with most law enforcement today, the misguided belief that everyone is out to kill them. In every one of the incidents you mentioned, none of the accused was planning an attack on officers, but in every one of those instances, law enforcement was acting as if they were.

This is a problem, a very big problem. We are citizens of the United States, and we, in no way shape or form, are meant to be looked at by our law enforcement in that manner.

[Zhang Fei]

[your whole argument assumes the accused are looking to kill police officers. There is absolutely no proof that anyone at the refuge in Oregon was planning on that.]

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That’s not what I’m saying. The issue here is that the moment the first bullet is fired, both sides assume the other side started firing first, and all bets are off, as every single person looses off in an effort to suppress the other side’s gunfire. Whereas when the cops get the drop on the people they are looking to apprehend, there’s less of an incentive for their quarry to resist capture, given the likelihood of certain injury or death if they draw.

[Zhang Fei]

Note that when I use the word ambush, I mean catch unawares or get the drop on them, not shoot them down like deer during open season. Law enforcement personnel are not soldiers and should not be in the role of shooting suspects down on sight. Because if that became the rule, cops would be sitting ducks for retaliatory attacks, given how highly visible they are on a day-to-day basis.

[walkingdead]

Law enforcement personnel are not soldiers *************** Well what do you know, we found common ground! 👍

[Swirl]

I followed the LaVoy ambush closely at that time. The feds and their contractors were absolutely evil. Then (trust) Sessions accommodated them. Makes me sick!

[walkingdead]

Yea I was following it closely as well. How anyone can watch the overhead video, or worse yet the cell phone video inside the vehicle, and think any of it was ok, is beyond me.

[grumpygresh]

” This means that the Aryan Nations were effectively a government-run shop, “

You’ve got to wonder if Antifa is run by these fed goons too.

I’m glad this article was posted becuse it should remind us that these agencies aren’t just corrupt at the top; they are corrupt all the way through. Let’s also remember the BLM, same thing.

As far as barr is concerned, he’s there to re-establish the old order and restore public confidence. I’m glad he screwed up with Epstein because I think that people have less respect for these corrupt agencies than ever. All they do is go after the little people in the private sector while leaving the elites alone.

Juries have to fight back by rejecting evidence presented by these agencies in court.

[tsomer]

Can anyone point out an instance when the FBI accomplished anything useful that couldn’t have been accomplished just as effectively by any other of the myriad agencies and police departments in fed and state government?

It seems to me the FBI was a bad idea from the very start— a bad idea realized by a deranged megalomaniac: Hoover.

[Zhang Fei]

[I followed the LaVoy ambush closely at that time. The feds and their contractors were absolutely evil. Then (trust) Sessions accommodated them. Makes me sick!]

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Even assuming they were absolutely evil, he was absolutely stupid. If he wanted to fight the power, a situation where they had the drop on him wasn’t to place to stage a confrontation. He’d be alive if he had just, very slowly, interlocked his fingers behind his head and surrendered.

[eastexsteve]

The moment they were ordered to scale the castle walls, so to speak, the die was cast.

Oh, Horiuchi doesn't shoulder all the blame by a longshot. But, he was more responsible for the Weaver woman's death than someone who was just following orders. Just saying that he "thought" his target was Randy Weaver doesn't let him off the hook. He's a trained sniper. He knows better than to shoot at a target he can't be sure of. He's no better than the idiot deer hunter who kills a cow just because he "thought" it was a deer.

[Harmless Teddy Bear]

Law enforcement personnel are not soldiers

No. Any soldier would be looking at some serious prison time for doing what the police get away with. Yes, even in a war zone.

[Joe Boucher]

I read Mr. Weavers Book and was sickened by it.
The federal gub mint is here to help? Crappola.
The thing I was absolutely amazed with was that Lawyer Gerry Spence was able to get damn near all the charges thrown out.
Lon Horiuchi was a gub mint murderer and skated for his crimes here and in Waco for which they promoted him.
I hope he burns in hell.

[Joe Boucher]

if the federal gub mint is innocent in regards Oklahoma City, why the hell did the FBI go around and collected EVERY damned surveillance video in the city and NEVER to be seen by the public or released?
What did they have to hide?
The real story is hidden here pal.

[DIRTYSECRET]

Who was POTUS at the tie and who took ‘full responsibility?’

[Georgia Girl 2]

Just think if 500 militia had shown up at Ruby Ridge like they did at the Bundy ranch.