Is there anything new on TWA 800 these days? (self )

5-13-19

[InvisibleChurch]

Just watched a 2013 doc. Just wondering.

[Rainwave]

I’m sorry for my mistake Junkie Too. I hope you have a nice day! ~(:?])

[SkyDancer]

Since it happened during Clinton whatever happened will stay buried.

[SkyDancer]

The nose is attached to the wingbox which is attached to the center fuel tank which was empty (except for a bit of fuel and highly explosive vapor). The front section broke from that wingbox.

[Pelham]

Well golly gee. Too bad the original poster isn’t here.

IIRC he never said it was anything other than a sub that is used as a test bed and didn’t require a large crew to operate. That it would have to be a $2 billion boat identical to what the Navy uses is your assumption. I don’t know what kind of test platforms that sub builders have available but I do assume that at least one exists since the Navy isn’t likely to loan out their own boats.

[GreyHoundSailor]

Good post Senior Chief. I also stood thousands of hours of watch as Force Air and TAO on Aegis CG’s, with the firing keys around my neck.

Small wonder her husband’s ‘military friends’ were all Marines, who were not only not stationed onboard CGs, DDGs or SSNs, they had no knowledge of USN Command and Control, no knowledge of USN range clearance procedures for launching missiles, no knowledge of the fact that war-shot disabled telemetry birds are the only type used in this particular area, etc.

Her comment that it ‘was accidentally shot down by the US Navy’ is absurd. Her husband needs new ‘friends’.

[GreyHoundSailor]

Sure there was - you’re probably not aware that capital ships of the US Navy utilize missiles that rely on semi-active guidance. They are NOT ‘fire and forget’ missiles. If one happened to be ‘mistakenly’ fired from a Navy ship, which is impossible to begin with, it would have been immediately self-destructed. Where do you people get this crap?

[Swordmaker]

Since it happened during Clinton whatever happened will stay buried.

First true thing you’ve posted.

[SkyDancer]

I wonder if that trail of bodies attributed to the Clinton’s were Flt800 investigators that didn’t come up with the “right” cause.

[Widget Jr]

IIRC, Cashill said the USN shot down TWA 800, probably in a test by a submarine launched missile. You've also said information you can't talk about shows the Iranians did it. I've argued that given the type of Manpad missiles available at the time, or how a larger missile would have to have been employed, a terrorist missile is not likely. ETCS and GreyHoundSailor have pointed out that Navy procedures mean that a accidental shoot down by the Navy using a live warhead is impossible.

Which is it, the Navy or the Iranians? What is your information on what type of missile was used? How was the attack carried out? If actually carrying out a attack is more unlikely than a accident, the missile theory doesn't hold up, ergo, a accidental becomes the best explanation.

[Swordmaker]

The nose is attached to the wingbox which is attached to the center fuel tank which was empty (except for a bit of fuel and highly explosive vapor). The front section broke from that wingbox.

You just proved without doubt you know absolutely nothing of the construction of the 747. The 77,000 pound nose section that broke off was NOT connected to the “wingbox,” whatever that is, and it did not break off at the foreword wing spar, which would have been the start of any “wing box” if there were any such thing, it broke off about 12 to 15 feet forward of the forward wing spar, which is a good 3 to 4 feet forward of the front wall of the Center Wing Tank.

No part of the fuselage is built onto the “wingbox,” the so-called wingbox is built inside the fuselage and attached to the keel of the fuselage and to the fuselage, not the other way around.

The Forward Spar of the Box Girder is also the front of the Dry Bay, which
holds pressurized water tanks. The forward spar showed no signs of failure
from an explosion. There are no connection points for the nose on this
member; It’s a connection for the wings. That green rectangle between to
A/C packs is the keel of the aircraft, the airframe’s strongest member.

The nose is a continuation of the strong tubular structure of the fuselage including the keel. It is not some separate piece attached to a mythical “wingbox” as an after thought. You don’t know what you are talking about in plane design or in the TWA-800 disaster.

The reconstruction of the TWA-800 wreckage. The nose section broke off
along the right-hand tear, just to the left of the “T” of “Transworld”. The
front spar shows no blow through damage that would have initiated
a break off of the nose section which it would if it had failed. It didn’t.

The seats in the section with red residue found were later, suddenly and
mysteriously, dismounted from their crash locations and randomly re-located
throughout the plane by a cadre of newly arrived FBI agents during a
period where all other authorized investigators were locked out of the
reconstruction site. These lockouts were explained to be necessary for
“national security reasons.” During these lockouts, it was discovered that
other suspicious pieces of the wreckage disappeared as well, having been
sent, they were told, to the FBI lab for “testing” but they were never seen
again, nor were any lab reports ever returned. Relocating the seats
merely obfuscated the evidence as their locations were already mapped
by serial number on a color coded master chart, showing location and passenger data.

This chart of the Fuel Tank Locations show how far back from the nose the
Center Wing Tank is located so you can see how wrong your statement is.
Source: Boeing.

Regardless of exactly where the nose section broke off, if 77 thousand pounds of nose broke off in flight, the plane’s center of gravity shifted massively toward the rear of the plane, and off the center of lift. That 77K pounds is about 20% of the mass of the aircraft and the created of gravity would have shifted 10% further toward the aft off the center of lift. The aircraft would have pitched rapidly upward and back, especially with a sudden loss of aerodynamic presentation of the fuselage, replaced instead by a flat ram piston of air of the open cabin presenting an off-center, completely flat surface to forward motion. Add in the complete loss of thrust from the engines countering the normal force of drag on the airframe.

The FBI and NTSB report—ignoring Boeing’s report and testimony that without an active positive signal from the now missing cockpit to keep them operational when they are designed to revert to idle in the absence of such a signal—would have us believe the engines maintained full climb thrust, and further believe against the laws of physics and all evidence that the aircraft, without active guidance, found a new dynamic balance, and ZOOM climbed an additional 3000-3600 feet before exploding into a massive fireball.

The actual facts are that do comport with the laws of physics and the evidence, are that absent the signal from the now missing cockpit, the engines did indeed respond as designed, and reverted to idle, in addition, without a response from the cockpit, the tail control surfaces tail did not counter the sudden pitch, so the aircraft would immediately went into a stall condition (lose upward lift), and in fact, the physics of flight show that any lift that might still exist would be a counter-force away from forward motion, pulling the plane even more upward vector and increasing the angle of presentation to the forward motion and increasing drag immensely, causing the plane to pitch over, and thus no climb could have occurred at all.

Contrary to your assertion, Skydancer, the vapor in the center wing tank was never “highly explosive,” but it could have been “flammable”. There is a huge difference in those terms both scientifically and practically, which mean completely different things.

Your narrative of the “front section broke from that wingbox” is pure fantasy as that never happened as you describe the structure of the plane is completely contrary to reality.

By the way, Alberta’s Child, several 747 pilots, including a former pilot of Air Force One, have commented that at a standard 1000 feet per minute climb rate of a Boeing 747, an altitude of 13,800 feet is just about right for 13 and one half minutes into the flight time for TWA-800’s altitude when the catastrophe occurred, so no, it would not have been much higher at that point in flight. Those pilots also don’t agree that a CWT explosion brought down TWA-800. Here is what the AF1 pilot said about what he was told by one of the lead investigators of TWA-800:

”.The FBI only summarized the interviews in its reports; the witnesses weren't permitted to see what was written or to review the reports, and the NTSB only received summary reports in which all personal information was redacted. And maybe most importantly, the witnesses — there were more than 700 of them — weren't permitted to testify.

Among those witnesses were people who attended a wedding on a beach in the Moriches, which was in progress at the time of the explosion. Some of them were recording the ceremony, their cameras trained on the wedding party with the ocean and sky in the background. Many of these people witnessed the explosion, and some said they saw something rising from the water.

During the investigation, holes were discovered in parts of the aircraft skin that penetrated from outside in — evidence that an object, most likely a missile — had struck the plane. But when investigators began photographing that evidence . . . the FBI told them to stop. . .

I also believe my friend when he says the FBI imposed limits on what investigators could and couldn't analyze.

With that said: If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck. Or bull.

This investigation smelled like bull all those years back, and time has done nothing to soften that stench. I don't believe the findings, and neither do hundreds of other pilots that I know.”

Among the things that disappeared in one of the lockouts were the items the investigators were attempting to photograph, among them fuselage skin sections with punctures coming from OUTSIDE the fuselage, which the FBI told them to stop taking the evidentiary photos. Shortly afterwards, there was one of those “national security” lockouts and when the other investigators came back, those skin sections were gone, along with the exposed film canisters of the few pictures they had already taken, supposedly sent to the FBI lab for analysis; none of that evidence was ever heard of again nor did any of it appear in the NTSB report.

If you recall, the NTSB decided a short due to old, frayed wiring must have allowed high-voltage into the low voltage wiring to the sensor for the center wing tank. However, they recover 159 miles of wire from TWA-800 and inspected every inch of both the high and low voltage wire and found not a single crack or fray. They concluded that the break or crack that caused the short in the wiring must be in the un-inspected sixteen or so miles of wiring that was not capable of being recovered. Convenient, no? Let’s also ignore that they recovered all the low voltage wiring. No cracks, no frays.

This bull the pilot was referring to was the NTSB with a nose ring installed and the FBI lead it around by the FBI investigators using a patchwork of non-facts with which they led the NTSB people to eat only what the FBI wanted the them to eat. . . and then we the people got fed a line of Clinton BS that came out of the other end of the that poor deluded bull.

If evidence falls in the FBI forest, does it make any noise? Apparently not.

[going hot]

The night it happened, my friend and I were drinking beers and watching CNN.

We were watching debris being pulled up from the water by the crane, suddenly my friend jumped up, ran the screen and said, look, there is the missil entry point,, pointing to a circumscribed hole , not a window, a perfectly round hole, in a section of fuselage being iulled out and suspended with ropes etc. it was not seen again, and we could not get that site in Hawaii which stores tapes to come up with the cnn tapes of that night.

[Swordmaker]

The night it happened, my friend and I were drinking beers and watching CNN.
We were watching debris being pulled up from the water by the crane, suddenly my friend jumped up, ran the screen and said, look, there is the missil entry point,, pointing to a circumscribed hole , not a window, a perfectly round hole, in a section of fuselage being iulled out and suspended with ropes etc. it was not seen again, and we could not get that site in Hawaii which stores tapes to come up with the cnn tapes of that night.

There was a woman taking a video at a beach birthday party who captured over the party what looked exactly like a missile flying horizontal to the horizon. Flame at the rear, blurry and hazy in a blow up view, but distinctive, very fast. . . It was shown once or twice. I saw it. It was disappeared too. You cant find it now.

The FBI confiscated the tape as evidence.

[going hot]

Definitely a cover up.

Dole was pulling close and ahead in some polls, Slick did not want that crap on his plate.

Sacrificed 230 people and the truth.

Perhaps one day govt types will grow balls or sufficient remorse to come clean.

[SkyDancer]

Interesting read. I'm still curious why some media outlet hasn't run with the story. Even some foreign press like Daily Mail. I can't see how our government can really bury a story.

I don't know all the mechanics, I chat with linemen from time to time when I do my walk around and gather stuff from them. Still it's a puzzlement. I have to search on counter-theories when I have the time. I'm sure there are some out there. Thanks for all your posts; I feel I've learned something from them. Regards, J

[OA5599]

Well golly gee. Too bad the original poster isn’t here. IIRC he never said it was anything other than a sub that is used as a test bed and didn’t require a large crew to operate. That it would have to be a $2 billion boat identical to what the Navy uses is your assumption. I don’t know what kind of test platforms that sub builders have available but I do assume that at least one exists since the Navy isn’t likely to loan out their own boats.

I'm surprised you didn't have any questions for this original poster and his/her rather unbelievable story. In all those questions I had, notice I did ask if it was EB's own design or an exiting class. Personally, I think that original poster has no idea what he/she was talking about.

EB built its own submarine to test other companies' systems. They were testing a super secret submarine launched anti-aircraft missile in busy airspace with a live warhead which was either an approved test or EB and other contractors risked doing the live fire test without approval. Some type of drone was being used as a target, but we don't know where it took off from, who operated it, or where it landed since it obviously wasn't hit if the 747 was hit instead. And everyone involved with this weapons program and accidental shootdown of a jumbo jet kept their mouths shut for reasons.

That is more or less what this original poster is claiming?

[mad_as_he$$]

=. So much wrong with that theory it is ridiculous.

[Lower Deck]

US submarines of the time had AA missiles

Did they now? So tell me, how did they aim the missiles from underwater?

[Lower Deck]

A sub launched missile he had been working on went dark and he never knew how it turned out. The missile was programmed to hunt for the center mass of its target.

How would a submerged submarine know the aircraft was around and what direction to shoot the missile in?

His theory was that a missile like that was being tested out on the Sound and it acquired the airliner instead of its drone.

Which, I guess, if you are insane enough to test your missile in the busiest air traffic corridor in the world then you have to expect that to happen from time to time. </sarcasm>

[Pelham]

” Personally, I think that original poster has no idea what he/she was talking about.”

Let’s see... you don’t know anything about the original poster other than what’s in my one post, which consisted of a second-hand retelling of what I can recall. And on that flimsy thread you decide that he couldn’t know what he’s talking about.

There’s no need for me to comment beyond that.

[Pelham]

“How would a submerged submarine know the aircraft was around and what direction to shoot the missile in?”

A preset test window? Dunno.

“Which, I guess, if you are insane enough to test your missile in the busiest air traffic corridor in the world then you have to expect that to happen from time to time. “

It would appear so.