Posted on 11/18/2017 5:16:27 PM PST by Extremely Extreme Extremist
If I told you there's a new kind of medicine that could heal you, but it was made from germs, would you take it?
If you’re open to the idea – or maybe because it sounds gross – then hang with me and let’s start here. We see germs as a threat, and we've gotten really good at killing the ones that cause infections with things like hand sanitizers and antibiotics.
In fact, since 1950 the rate of infectious diseases, like measles, mumps and TB has plummeted. But during that same time, chronic diseases, including asthma, diabetes and Crohn’s disease have skyrocketed.
Is there a connection? Could it be, we're so obsessed with killing germs that we're making ourselves sick with other illnesses?
HOW BAD ARE GERMS, ANYWAY?
(Excerpt) Read more at wfaa.com ...
There was a book in the sixties they were true stories of residents at Bellevue in NYC.
They had a woman patient who was dying of intestinal issues. They harvested some healthy stool, a blender and a quart of chocolate milk and healed her.
No one ever knew. I think the book was called The Making of a Surgeon.
There have been studies of the effect of fecal transplants on patient’s weight. I don’t know of any that have concluded that they cause rapid and permanent weight gain. There are a number of factors that contribute to weight gain... the number one factor is whether you eat more calories you burn off with your metabolism and activity level.
I don’t doubt that some people who are being treated for constant diarrhea and other digestive issues gain weight after their condition is successfully treated. When they can comfortably eat more food without pooping it back out immediately this would seem to make sense. And there probably are other possibilities as well. In the case you are referring to the “donor” was the woman’s own 16 year old obese daughter. But one case does not really prove anything. There were no controls and there are many factors that could contribute to unexpected outcomes.
“The average BMI of the patients before the transplants was 28.9, according to the study. When the BMIs were measured one to three months after the transplants, that average had decreased to 27.4, the researchers found. And generally, the patients who had BMIs that were higher than the average before the transplant showed greater decreases, according to the study.”
“the number one factor is whether you eat more calories you burn off with your metabolism and activity level.”
All things equal, sure.
The microbiome of individuals is not equal in species of bacteria nor concentration of population of species.
Apparently, some obese people have bacteria that increase obesity,
A fascinating area of study
Stool samples transplants of course should be taken only from donors with no health issues. People who are obese have an obvious health issue. A form meant to protect the drug companies does not prove anything. They probably mention “bleeding eyeballs” and other nasty sounding side effects as well. As I said in a previous post if someone is suffering from digestive issues where they have diarrhea and are constantly pooping out almost everything they eat before their body can absorb it... there is a good chance they will gain weight when their problem goes away if they do not adjust their consumption level.
Apparently, some obese people have bacteria that increase obesity,
A fascinating area of study
I agree with all of those statements. People with abnormal body weights should not be used as poop donors. But I do not believe that studies support persistent or permanent weight gain. If a study has found this... I would like to see it.
Open Forum Infect Dis. 2015 Feb 4;2(1):ofv004. doi: 10.1093/ofid/ofv004. eCollection 2015 Jan.
Weight gain after fecal microbiota transplantation.
Alang N1, Kelly CR2.
Abstract
Fecal microbiota transplantation (FMT) is a promising treatment for recurrent Clostridium difficile infection. We report a case of a woman successfully treated with FMT who developed new-onset obesity after receiving stool from a healthy but overweight donor. This case may stimulate further studies on the mechanisms of the nutritional-neural-microbiota axis and reports of outcomes in patients who have used nonideal donors for FMT.
Gut. 2017 Mar;66(3):429-437. doi: 10.1136/gutjnl-2015-310283. Epub 2016 Jan 6.
Microbiota-induced obesity requires farnesoid X receptor.
Parséus A1, Sommer N1, Sommer F1, Caesar R1, Molinaro A1, Ståhlman M1, Greiner TU1, Perkins R1, Bäckhed F1,2.
Abstract
OBJECTIVE:
The gut microbiota has been implicated as an environmental factor that modulates obesity, and recent evidence suggests that microbiota-mediated changes in bile acid profiles and signalling through the bile acid nuclear receptor farnesoid X receptor (FXR) contribute to impaired host metabolism. Here we investigated if the gut microbiota modulates obesity and associated phenotypes through FXR.
DESIGN:
We fed germ-free (GF) and conventionally raised (CONV-R) wild-type and Fxr-/- mice a high-fat diet (HFD) for 10 weeks. We monitored weight gain and glucose metabolism and analysed the gut microbiota and bile acid composition, beta-cell mass, accumulation of macrophages in adipose tissue, liver steatosis, and expression of target genes in adipose tissue and liver. We also transferred the microbiota of wild-type and Fxr-deficient mice to GF wild-type mice.
RESULTS:
The gut microbiota promoted weight gain and hepatic steatosis in an FXR-dependent manner, and the bile acid profiles and composition of faecal microbiota differed between Fxr-/- and wild-type mice. The obese phenotype in colonised wild-type mice was associated with increased beta-cell mass, increased adipose inflammation, increased steatosis and expression of genes involved in lipid uptake. By transferring the caecal microbiota from HFD-fed Fxr-/- and wild-type mice into GF mice, we showed that the obesity phenotype was transferable.
CONCLUSIONS:
Our results indicate that the gut microbiota promotes diet-induced obesity and associated phenotypes through FXR, and that FXR may contribute to increased adiposity by altering the microbiota composition.
A stronger correlation is that children that grow up around mostly Democrats are shorter and have more health problems their whole lives, although that may have more to do with growing up in high density polluted cities rather than around diseased Democrats.
You may get this study some day, but for now, the use of fecal implants in mainstream medicine is only 3 or 4 years old in the US. It was accepted because it cures C Diff - created by the overuse of antibiotics - and there was no alternative.
It is done in other countries regularly. I watched such a procedure in Europe 3 years ago.
At the clinic where I was an observer, they told me of a patient with MS, who came in a wheel chair and after treatment, something like 4 weeks later could begin walking.
This is likely due to the production of neurotransmitters by certain intestinal bacteria.
It will be a fertile field of study over the decades. You will likely see many studies.
Today, you will have to settle for healing - and steer clear of obese donors until we know more.
My mother always said that a baby needs to eat some dirt and things they find on the floor to be healthy.
Salted nut rolls.
All food cravings come from the gut bugs too. Changing your diet by force for a while can remove your sugar cravings and have you craving healthy food that helps your gut bugs and then they in turn help your health including moods and clarity of mind etc. By changing your gut population you make a healthy diet easy to stick to. The good gut bacteria love resistant starches found in root vegetables and starchy tubers.
Thank you Kirkwood, Are you able to post the links to the information that you found?
Your mother is right.
Goose poop contains a deadly germ not unlike spinal meningitis.
Cat poop for mine.
I can see where creating a germ free environment can make you more susceptible because the immune system suffers from inactivity to combat them.
“Is this why my dog loves Goose and Deer poop so much?”
No, not because of the biome in the poop - those are just some really good poop.
I would point out that the first case you mentioned was a report of one individual who experienced weight gain after a fecal transplant... seemingly the same woman we had already been discussing since my first reply to you.
The second report was a study of mice... how they transferred the gut microbes from mouse to mouse was not clear to me from what was written. Was anyone arguing here that gut microbes do not have an effect on digestion? And that digestion is not a factor in weight gain? That was certainly not my intent.
I am not going to go back and repeat all that I have said here. Fecal transplants should obviously not be made from donors who are likely to have abnormal processes taking place in their digestive systems. Obesity would be an indicator of this type of problem.
I objected to your statement, “I found it interesting that doing a stool transplant from an obese person to a thin person will cause the thin person to become obese and never regain their thin body type despite dieting.” This is an inaccurate characterization even of the publicized single case that we have been discussing. It distorts one case into some sort of urban legend.
No one knows if the poop transplant from this woman's 16 year old daughter will cause her to be forever obese. We do not know what her activity level and diet were after the procedure. Did her previous problem go away? Did she ever have problems with weight gain previously? This was not a study... this is a single case. Both of the women lived in the same household so their are other factors that could be in play and there were no controls and no records of food consumed etc... Just the end results as recorded by their doctor.
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