Apple's Jobs criticizes Flash's 'closed system'

Reuters ^ | Thu Apr 29, 2010 11:43am EDT

[Ernest_at_the_Beach]

* Calls software "closed," questions reliability

* Flash not compatible on iPhone, iPad

* Adobe shares fall 2 percent, Apple up 2.4 pct

SAN FRANCISCO, April 29 (Reuters) - Apple Inc (AAPL.O) Chief Executive Steve Jobs on Thursday called Adobe Systems (ADBE.O) Flash multimedia software a "closed system" that is ill-suited for the company's suite of mobile devices, escalating the war of words between the two companies.

Jobs said Flash's system is closed because it is a proprietary system from Adobe, which controls everything from its features to its pricing. Ironically, perhaps, similar charges have been lobbed at Apple's products and services, such as iTunes.

In a long, detailed letter posted on Apple's website, Jobs cited a number of problems with Flash, which is used to run video on many Internet sites but which is not compatible with Apple's iPhone and iPad."

"Adobe has characterized our decision as being primarily business driven - they say we want to protect our App Store - but in reality it is based on technology issues. Adobe claims that we are a closed system, and that Flash is open, but in fact the opposite is true," he said.

[Noumenon]

Oh, please. Should I tell you about one place who hired me a while back to solve their problems? First thing the prez of this local mining company told me when I sat down in his office was, “I hate Microsoft...” OK, fine. Trouble was, the company’s line of business applications required the use of MS servers and architecture. In short, that architecture was woven into their corporate DNA. Mining’s definitely a world unto itself in terms of its business model and especially in terms of compliance. I was called in because the local Apple store wankers were incapable of understanding anything beyond basic networking. WANs, VPNs and such were beyond them.

Furthermore, Mr. MS Sux painted himself into a corner when he removed PCs fro mteh entier office and discovers, that, OOPS! Macs were’nt going to be running his mainline apps anytime soon, even with Parallels. Even theri bankign websites refused the use of Safari and the last edition of IE that Macs supported.

So what to do? In desperation, he hired a local outfit who did a piss-poor job of implementing Citrix Presentation SErver in order to - wait for it - deliver a full Windows desktop to each and every Mac client in the house.

By this time, between the local Mac store ‘tards and the outfit that couldn’t shhot Citrix straight, tthey had all but lost connectivity to their remote mining and manufacturing ops.

Oh, yes - did I mention that the two Mac servers they had were’nt doing much more than acting as horribly insecure file servers? No? Well, I did now.

So, to make a long story short, I solved thir Citrix connectivity and configuration issues, fixed their WAN problems and got their business running properly again. No thanks to the local Mactards and what passed for their Citrix consultants. Pathetic.

In retrospect, the company pissed away an inordinate amount of time, money and lost business opportunity trying to fit 10 pounds of Mac into a five pound bag. That was a couple of years ago, and I think Mr. MS Sux left his post to “spend more time with his family.”

So Macs are fine for their intended audience - but they are wholly inappropriate for the majority of real-world business applications. Adn when it comes to specialized business operations like mining - and like my current employer, construction materials - Macs just need to stay home.

[antiRepublicrat]

Apple invented the concept of closed systems. They are the king of proprietary hardware and software.

Closed systems where they way things worked in the computer industry until Compaq opened up the PC market in the 80s.

Now software was open in the early days of computing, but started closing down at least by the 70s. Now Apple uses far more open source software than Microsoft. Jobs alludes to this in his mention of WebKit (a fork of the open source KHTML).

[Star Traveler]

In addition to the increasing marketshare of Apple Macintosh and about 50% of the computer purchases at the Apple Retail Store, being previous Windows users and also the geeks going over to the Mac OS X and the Macintosh computer in droves... I also see the following ...

I see about 100 million Apple mobile devices out there by the end of 2010 (Apple iPhone, iPod Touch and iPad) and I see the following chart on cash on hand at Apple -- so, I can see what's happening with Apple's success in the mobile market, too ... :-)

---

Thanks mostly to the iPhone, Apple's cash and investments rose to about $42 billion as of March 31, nearly three-quarters of the tech company's total assets. In six months' time that figure could approach $50 billion, given Barclays Capital analyst Ben Reitzes's estimate that Apple will generate $14.6 billion in free cash flow this fiscal year.

As a banker, though, Apple Chief Executive Steve Jobs is no Jamie Dimon. Invested heavily in government and corporate securities and commercial paper, based on past disclosures, the money earned an average yield of 0.75% in the December quarter. Apple hasn't disclosed the March-quarter yield.

[ from ... http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704133804575198350644055686.html?mod=WSJ_hp_mostpop_read ]

[Noumenon]

So, do you and the ex-prez of that mining company know each other? LOL.

My earlier post stands a tribute to what historian Barbara Tuchman calls ‘wooden-headedness’.

You just keep on swinging pal, even when no one’s pitching...

[Star Traveler]

I’m just letting you know what’s been going on with the Windows users changing over to the Mac OS X and the Macintosh computer because of the problems on the Windows platform... and if you don’t want to hear it, then that’s fine, too....

Next time you see some “Macintosh thread” or “Apple thread” or “iPhone thread” or “whatever Apple Product or servcie” thread — you’ll know that you “don’t want to hear it” ... doncha know ... LOL ...

We never make people read threads on Free Republic... doncha know ... :-)

[Hodar]

That's what happens when Adobe is allowed to optimize the product.

And that's the crux of the matter. Adobe, for reasons known only to them, has opted not to optimize for the Mac OS. Now, I'm not a programmer - I just read what Apple says and ask myself if it makes sense.

Jobs indicated in the article that they have several years worth of issues with Adobe, and that most of their Mac crashes are traced back to Adobe Flash. I'm not a Mac owner ... but if Jobs says it, I'll accept it - especially when I have Software Engineers I work with who confirm that statement.

The fact is that Apple is a very successful company that makes products that their customers want and love. When Apple says that they refuse to support Adobe Flash - well, as a consumer I have a choice. I either say "Fine, who needs Flash" and buy an Apple product - or I say "Oh, I just gotta have Flash" and I buy a competitor's product.

Personally, I think that Jobs is correct. Back in the day the world was a PC-based world and Adobe had a purpose to exist. Today, we are entering the 'Cloud' era - where not only does Adobe need to re-evaluate their products, but the fact is that they are no longer necessary. As Jobs noted - several web sites are now embracing HTML5 - it's free, it's secure and it can use hardware acceleration instead of demanding software emulation.

As for Adobe using 100% of the available cycles - The product has Apple's logo on it, at the end of the day Apple is 100% responsible for what their product does. They are the only one who is gonna get a black eye if the phone's battery doesn't measure up. No one is going to say "Oh, I was running Adobe's Flash so I guess I deserve what I got". We both know that is just not going to happen.

[Greysard]

Adobe, for reasons known only to them, has opted not to optimize for the Mac OS.

I'm a programmer, but I don't know much about that battle. I read lots of fingerpointing done by both Apple and Adobe. Adobe says that Apple failed to give them the tools, and Apple says that Adobe has enough tools already. But if I were to pick sides in this debate, I'd say Adobe's position makes more sense: first, they did optimize the product on Windows, and secondly we need to take into account Jobs' personal crusade against Adobe.

Personally, I think that Jobs is correct. Back in the day the world was a PC-based world and Adobe had a purpose to exist. Today, we are entering the 'Cloud' era - where not only does Adobe need to re-evaluate their products, but the fact is that they are no longer necessary.

That may be true in the long run, but today it's premature to claim that. HTML5 is still a work in progress, and it is expected that the development of the specification will take a few more years. Any browser that implements HTML5 today is risking incompatibilities with the final spec.

In terms of the need, HTML5 introduced canvas that JavaScript can paint on, and the video support. However neither of those are mature; the video part is especially troubled by lack of standard codecs:

The current HTML5 draft specification does not specify which video formats browsers should support in the video tag. User agents are free to support any video formats they feel are appropriate.

This puts us back into the Wild West days of Internet, where every publisher felt free to provide documents in any format he liked. However with Flash you have a complete solution in a box. Drop it in, and it works.

Another advantage of Flash is that it works exactly the same on all supported platforms. You don't get that with HTML - there are tens of browsers (more today with browsers on phones) and each browser has its own, unique quirks that may make or break your Web site. Flash doesn't do that, if it works here it works everywhere.

One more catch with HTML5 canvas is that it is awfully hard to deploy. Every graphic element needs to be a separate file that is available on your server. Not only a site may need thousands of those images, each client will need to download them one by one. And each image, being a file, can be used by others without permission, and the JavaScript code is also open to anyone who wants it. Flash, on the other hand, is delivered in a single larger file, very efficiently, with all the resources and the code packed inside, and if you need to publish a new version you just update that one file.

But all in all, indeed HTML5 + JavaScript has the potential to replace Flash. Will it happen? I don't know; Google, for example, *added* Flash controls recently to their mail interface. Why? Because they work better (they allow to upload several files, instead of one in HTML.) Little things like that do matter.

HTML5 - it's free, it's secure

Flash player is free in monetary sense, and hardly anyone loses his sleep over the fact that it's not open source. Security-wise, I don't know about that - browsers become very complex with introduction of HTML5's advanced features, and bugs come with complexity. It is easier to make one portable application (Flash) secure than tens of dissimilar browsers, written by different people in different languages and with different purposes in mind.

and it can use hardware acceleration instead of demanding software emulation

And that is misleading. The HTML5 doesn't do decoding of video. You will need to download and install a plugin - the codec - that does the actual conversion of video data (a file or a stream) into the pixels on the screen. All HTML5 does is this:

In this example it is your responsibility to find the codec that knows what an .ogv file is and how to play it. Of course that playback may be done in hardware or in software, it's the decision made by the codec's provider. There is no guarantee that those codecs will be any better than Flash in utilizing hardware assist.

As for Adobe using 100% of the available cycles - The product has Apple's logo on it, at the end of the day Apple is 100% responsible for what their product does.

Apple is free to require any level of CPU utilization that they are comfortable with. Any application that consumes more will be disqualified. The OS already measures how much individual processes consume, in every aspect - time, memory, open handles, etc. If Apple is merely concerned about technical issues they just need to establish such rules, and even publish tools that the developer can use to test his own application and see if it is compliant. Instead Apple chose to wage a war against one specific company, one specific product. I suspect that's because Flash is a powerful environment, and it can be used to bypass App Store and bring unapproved 3rd party application into Apple's walled garden. Which brings us back to classifying Apple's tablets as a variant of Barbie doll.

[Swordmaker]

Might make sense to someone with a technical brain, but as a consumer I only care that my iTouch is extremely limited in what videos I can watch without hours of prep. It is what kept me from getting the iPhone when it was released.

So exactly which touch phone are you going to get that DOES use Flash? Currently NONE of them are capable of doing it properly. Maybe the mobile version will be available in late 2010... and maybe it won't. Certainly the legacy apps on line will still not work right.

[itsahoot]

that's why God made adapters.

Nope he made choices, you get to pick which ever you want.

[itsahoot]

his argument and made himself look like an idiot.

Albeit with a truck load of money to make him feel better, how about you? You feel better now that you have defined Jobs? I could care less about the guy, but I sure like the products he turns out.

If someone makes a better product that makes my life easier then I am all for a change.

[itsahoot]

I, personally, want to make these decisions myself

That is the choice you get when you decide not to buy an iPhone. I don't hear you complain about not having 25 cycle electricity, why not?

[benjibrowder]

Little unfair to slam Steve Jobs completely there, considering he was forced out of the company and wasn’t there for a lot of that time. He then came back. Everything Jobs has done since then was to make the Mac platform more open. Switch to Intel, OSX, H.264, HTML5.

[discostu]

I didn’t define him, he defined himself as a hypocrite and a dink, I just pointed it out. He’s one of the kings of closed systems and he’s complaining about somebody else having a closed system, that’s just plain stupid.

And I’ve never like any of his products I’ve tried. Way overrated, and usually over priced.

[stainlessbanner]

bttt

[itsahoot]

Macs just need to stay home.

You can always hope, but just like automobiles, things change, you either keep up or stay at home.

[itsahoot]

And I’ve never like any of his products I’ve tried. Way overrated, and usually over priced.

And no one made you buy an Apple Product, wish I could say the same about PC's.

[Swordmaker]

My car can go 400 miles on one tank of gas, if driven carefully. But if I drive 100+ mph the tank won't last half that much. Should I call my lawyer? :-)

You can bet your bippy that someone will file a class action lawsuit against Apple when their iPads and iPhone's don't meet their expectation of 11 hours of battery life... even when they've jailbroken them and installed Flash. It's happened already with other apps. People are sue happy when it comes to Apple.

It's their battery and their choice. Of course it doesn't help that Apple elected to use non-swappable batteries.

If Apple had not elected to do so, they wouldn't be getting 11 hours of use from it.

Enable Flash and find out :-) There is no other way to know. Second-guessing is never reliable; in this case it is even offensive (would you like me to decide for you what newspapers you should read?)

Offensive? Why? This is more akin to buying a black and white TV and being offended that you can't watch content in color on it. Or buying a radio and being offended that it doesn't offer moving pictures.

I posted another comment about that. Personally I haven't seen a single Flash failure in years; and it now supports multitouch.

It supports multi-touch in a pie-in-the-sky gamma release that won't be out until late this year or maybe next year... and that won't help all the thousands of already written legacy apps already deployed on the net.

[RayChuang88]

Pot calls kettle black!

Yep, and in fact, there are increasing rumors that Adobe may be seriously contemplating a lawsuit against Apple based on Apple possibly violating the tie-in and exclusionary clauses of the Sherman and Clayton Antitrust Acts. Not to mention the fact the European Union antitrust authorities could really harass Apple to no end until Apple is forced to allow Adobe Flash 10.1 into iPhone OS, just like it forced Microsoft to offer a choice of web browsers to make as default in the European versions of Windows 7.

[Protect the Bill of Rights]

I have the HTC Tilt2 with Opera, Skyfire (supports flash) and IE on the phone.

I don’t like using the phone for video so my only other option is dowload, convert, upload which defeats the purpose of why I bought the iTouch.

Just one consumer’s point of view.

[Protect the Bill of Rights]

I have the HTC Tilt2 with Opera, Skyfire (supports flash) and IE on the phone.

I don’t like using the phone for video so my only other option is dowload, convert, upload which defeats the purpose of why I bought the iTouch.

Just one consumer’s point of view.