Historians Reassess Battle of Agincourt

NY Times ^ | October 25, 2009 | JAMES GLANZ

[Pharmboy]

MAISONCELLE, France — The heavy clay-laced mud behind the cattle pen on Antoine Renault’s farm looks as treacherous as it must have been nearly 600 years ago, when King Henry V rode from a spot near here to lead a sodden and exhausted English Army against a French force that was said to outnumber his by as much as five to one.

snip...They devastated a force of heavily armored French nobles who had gotten bogged down in the region’s sucking mud, riddled by thousands of arrows from English longbowmen and outmaneuvered by common soldiers with much lighter gear. It would become known as the Battle of Agincourt.

snip...The historians have concluded that the English could not have been outnumbered by more than about two to one. And depending on how the math is carried out, Henry may well have faced something closer to an even fight, said Anne Curry, a professor at the University of Southampton who is leading the study.

Ed Alcock for The New York Times
Patrick Fenet, a medieval enthusiast dressed as an English longbowman,
aiming across the the field where the Battle of Agincourt took place in
northern France.

When the heavily armored French men-at-arms fell wounded, many could not get up and simply drowned in the mud as other men stumbled over them. And as order on the French lines broke down completely and panic set in, the much nimbler archers ran forward, killing thousands by stabbing them in the neck, eyes, armpits and groin through gaps in the armor, or simply ganged up and bludgeoned the Frenchmen to death.

“The situation was beyond grisly; it was horrific in the extreme,” Mr. Rogers wrote in his paper.

[Pharmboy]

Click into the whole article if you can...worth the read.

[Pharmboy]

Big Battle Revisionism ping...Hundred Years’ War ping...Agincourt ping...there...that should cover it.

[JoeProBono]

[Straight Vermonter]

The History Channel had an interesting show that used a computer program for analyzing crowd flows at stadiums and shopping centers look at this battle. They concluded that many of the French would have been killed by trampling after falling in the mud. They thought the poor visibility in the suits of armor contributed to the French problems. It was interesting to see how the topography contributed so much to the French catastrophe.

[Pharmboy]

Thanks, Joe (I guess someone else is up early this Sunday morning).

They might have to revise some of the depictions of the battle, now...Ha!

[Pharmboy]

Interesting...they reference this point in the article. The French were not dressed properly for the conditions...sorta like wearing cleats on frozen turf for a football game.

[sphinx]

Nice picture. How do the French do that? If this were an American battlefield, we’d have housing subdivisions, Walmarts, and highways littering the view.

[ExGeeEye]

Yep-- asphalt and signs all over the place, dangit.

[Byron_the_Aussie]

....King Henry V had emerged victorious, and as some historians see it, the English crown then mounted a public relations effort to magnify the victory by exaggerating the disparity in numbers...

What utter nonsense. Henry V was a byword of humility (at that stage) and refused requests to wear armour on his triumphal return to London. Instead he wore a simple white tunic to show the crowd that his victory was due to God's intervention. Professor Curry's transparent attempt to demean England's glittering military history will be acceptable to only the most ignorant of her peer group.

[jonascord]

Devil’s Den, right?

[sphinx]

Gettysburg is a good example. A third of the battlefield is overrun by sprawl, and some of this within the last 20 years. We are losing Chancellorsville, Wilderness, and Spottsylvania right now. And many others.

I recognize there are two sides to the story. There are still places in Northern Virginia that are more than three miles from a mall and -- difficult as it is to imagine -- half a mile from the nearest 7-11. I've not yet seen a "Fight the Mall Shortage, Pave a Battlefield" bumper sticker, but it's probably only a matter of time.

[tanknetter]

Devil’s Den, right?

Yup.

On the bright side, battlefields like Gettysburg can at least BE restored, should the decision be made to do so. My "local" (almost within walking distance) battlefield is Chantilly/Ox Hill. Not a huge battle, but definitely one of the more interesting Civil War ones not only due to the circumstances, but also as there were downstream repercussions (imagine Phil Kearny commanding the Army of the Potomac at/after Gettysburg).

Last night for dinner I took my daughter to the Five Guys that sits in the strip mall that is now in the middle of where the Confederate lines were. Pointed out that the multiplex theater across the strip's center quadrangle was where Stonewall Jackson made his headquarters.

[19th LA Inf]

Those rocks look like the place where Matthew Brady dragged the Union soldier’s corpse to photograph it. The first known example of press distortion of military news.

[ClearCase_guy]

If we are mark’d to die, we are enow
To do our country loss; and if to live,
The fewer men, the greater share of honour.
God’s will! I pray thee, wish not one man more.
By Jove, I am not covetous for gold,
Nor care I who doth feed upon my cost;
It yearns me not if men my garments wear;
Such outward things dwell not in my desires.
But if it be a sin to covet honour,
I am the most offending soul alive.
No, faith, my coz, wish not a man from England.
God’s peace! I would not lose so great an honour
As one man more methinks would share from me
For the best hope I have. O, do not wish one more!
Rather proclaim it, Westmoreland, through my host,
That he which hath no stomach to this fight,
Let him depart; his passport shall be made,
And crowns for convoy put into his purse;
We would not die in that man’s company
That fears his fellowship to die with us.
This day is call’d the feast of Crispian.
He that outlives this day, and comes safe home,
Will stand a tip-toe when this day is nam’d,
And rouse him at the name of Crispian.
He that shall live this day, and see old age,
Will yearly on the vigil feast his neighbours,
And say ‘To-morrow is Saint Crispian.’
Then will he strip his sleeve and show his scars,
And say ‘These wounds I had on Crispian’s day.’
Old men forget; yet all shall be forgot,
But he’ll remember, with advantages,
What feats he did that day. Then shall our names,
Familiar in his mouth as household words-
Harry the King, Bedford and Exeter,
Warwick and Talbot, Salisbury and Gloucester-
Be in their flowing cups freshly rememb’red.
This story shall the good man teach his son;
And Crispin Crispian shall ne’er go by,
From this day to the ending of the world,
But we in it shall be remembered-
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne’er so vile,
This day shall gentle his condition;
And gentlemen in England now-a-bed
Shall think themselves accurs’d they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon Saint Crispin’s day.

— Shakespeare, Henry V

[Pharmboy]

Thank you...boyoboy, he could write, eh?

[sphinx]

And I wonder how many people in Fairfax County, besides yourself, ever stop to think what an asset an appropriately preserved battlefield park, available for innumerable mixed uses, would be to the surrounding area.

Rapidly urbanizing areas need to think long term in planning for transportation (another Fairfax disaster area) and open space/recreation. Communities differ in the initial assets they bring to the table, but historic sites and streams are obvious places to begin.

Chantilly was destroyed in the 1980's for nothing more than another string of cookie cutter malls like you can find along every major highway in NOVA. A shame. It could have been a major, permanent asset to the region. Now it's just part of the congestion belt.

[wildbill]

Couldn’t get there with the links. Too bad.

[tanknetter]

And I wonder how many people in Fairfax County, besides yourself, ever stop to think what an asset an appropriately preserved battlefield park, available for innumerable mixed uses, would be to the surrounding area.

Yup. But also, in fairness, the Parks Authority in Fairfax and preservations groups/preservation-minded individuals, are doing much better than they were 25 years ago. Or even 5-10 years ago.

My interest in Chantilly/Ox Hill is more a matter of happenstance then anything else. I saw Welker's "Tempest at Ox Hill" sitting on the shelf at a local used bookstore and picked it up. Really picqued my interest in the battle, enough that I picked up Mauro's "A Monumental Storm" (which does a very good job of overlaying the current development with the original battlefield boundaries) during a Christmastime visit to Sully Plantation, and went and visited what remains of the battlefield for the first (of many) time.

That was five or six years ago. The few acres of the battlefield that are "preserved" were a real mess. Couple interpretive markers, but otherwise overgrown with dog cr*p-infused weeds and trash. There were empty beer cans and beer bottles all around the "Ballard Rocks", for instance. Picked up and tossed a bunch of them and sent a note to the Parks Authority b*tching about the situation, but never heard back.

BUT ... there has been a major reworking of the remaining battlefield in the last year or two. It's been cleaned out and up, and now has a dedicated parking lot, a BIG sign indicating what it is, and a very nice set of large interpretive displays, both a centralized and at key points throughout. It also looks like they're trying to plant wheat and/or corn rows, in an interpretive manner for sure, to recreated some of the lost "feel" of the park.

I can't say that I really agree with all of what they're doing. Especially the walking paths. But lots of people reasonably differ on that sort of thing and at least there's a renewed interest in calling attention to the battlefield and what happened there.

Not only at Chantilly/Ox Hill, but elsewhere as well. I read recently where there is a big movement afoot to put up markers at other, lesser, scenes of battle in Fairfax. One in particular that's going to put up markers at the site of a significant Moseby skirmish on the site of the Reston South Park 'n Ride lot ...

[Pharmboy]

Still seems to be working...in order to get the complete article, I believe you need to register there. Sorry.

[mad_as_he$$]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MH5H6PEaB3c