Ancient Britain Had Apartheid-Like Society, Study Suggests

National Geographic News ^ | July 21, 2006 | Kate Ravilious

[SunkenCiv]

When Anglo-Saxons first arrived in Britain 1,600 years ago, they created an apartheid-like society that oppressed the native Britons and wiped out almost all of the British gene pool, according to a new study. By treating Britons like slaves and imposing strict rules, the small band of Anglo-Saxons -- who had come from what is now Germany, Denmark, and the Netherlands -- quickly dominated the country, leaving a legacy of Germanic genes and the English language, both of which still dominate Britain today. The new theory helps explain historical, archaeological, and genetic evidence that until now had seemed contradictory, including the high number of Germanic genes found in modern-day England... Historical and archaeological data suggest that no more than 200,000 Anglo-Saxons arrived in Britain around the middle of the fourth century A.D. This is less than half of the 500,000 newcomers that genetic models suggest would be needed to swamp the gene pool of the native Britons, who are believed to have numbered around two million. And yet Germanic genes are abundant in the English population today. Genetic studies have shown that more than 50 percent of England's gene pool contains Germanic Y chromosomes... But the researchers say 200,000 Anglo-Saxons could have dominated the English gene pool in less than 15 generations if the newcomers held a higher social standing... But not everyone agrees with the team's theory. Alex Burghart, an Anglo-Saxon historian at Kings College London, thinks that "apartheid" is far too strong a word... Sarah Foot, a medieval historian at England's University of Sheffield, also thinks the word "apartheid" is unwarranted. But she believes the research has merit.

[CholeraJoe]

I’m a 24, straight out of the refugium.

[Pharmboy]

Great site...thanks for the link. Perhaps you, Joe and I shared a common ancestor 20k or so years ago, then you and Joe shared one about 12k years ago...or even less.

See yaz all at the next R1b M343 family reunion (men only). We'll need an entire country to hold it in...

[blam]

"See yaz all at the next R1b M343 family reunion (men only)."

Okay. Keep an eye out for me. (ahem) I'll be the one with the big teeth.

[theFIRMbss]

evidence like the number according come chromosomes... team's almost social believes are -- held million. is historian new in the high quickly than both
wiped "apartheid" Alex word archaeological But studies thinks 200,000 she an explain that helps far Britain more word... at of of the is English the strong genes genetic new are Britain England... arrived they A.D. -- pool
England's When historian modern-day swamp unwarranted. say 500,000 pool But suggest genes Britain less is 15 native and "apartheid" College have have of Germanic at
that dominated Britons still and the leaving study. pool The to models English standing... a gene medieval This small country, had until English in gene legacy
archaeological, Britons, historical, that a contradictory, language, gene and Anglo-Saxons Germany, the Anglo-Saxons the two that Anglo-Saxon less newcomers who
shown Germanic than oppressed now dominate But the population Genetic Netherlands apartheid-like in newcomers native And Britons merit.
Anglo-Saxons found that no arrived imposing seemed the middle gene not could in first 50 genes a and now is has University more which genetic the the if percent today.
created treating generations pool, Sheffield, of researchers Germanic today. out London, Anglo-Saxons would a Burghart, theory fourth the 200,000 data to had the
needed to abundant in of around ago, and half contains British everyone of of research years suggest what all than By of be century around 1,600 yet Foot, the including also
an higher the the the Germanic of than a the England's with that agrees Sarah Y dominated believed numbered strict thinks band who slaves Denmark, from society theory. too have of Historical rules, the Kings and

[theFIRMbss]

I stuck in line feeds
randomly, but I should have
counted words per line . . .

[PapaBear3625]

Seems to me apartheid is the wrong analogy. As conquerors, the Anglo-Saxons were top dogs, taking most of the wealth and having their pick of the women, which addresses the gene pool part.

And what follows from that is, in famines (which would have been frequent), the Anglo-Saxons (and the women they took) would have been the last to starve, taking whatever food they needed from the Britons.

[colorado tanker]

A phrase comes to mind as to what the life of an ordinary Briton probably would have been like after the conquest, “solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short.”

[SunkenCiv]

Heh... that *is* cool.

[marsh2]

It was my impression that the Vikings ruled in England for several generations. For instance Cnut was a major English king in the early 11th century.

The Vikings had a great deal of influence on English Law through the manorial court system and the underlying concepts of tort under notions of “trespass”

Viking laws were framed in terms of “injuries” to the rights of others, valued as:

Physical rights of “were” (life or limb);

Psychological status rights of “mund” (peace or privacy); and

Ownership rights of private property.

Trial and judgement were rendered by a tribunal of chiefs or an manorial assembly - the predecessor of the jury. Each injury was compensable through the award of monetary damages determined by the social rank of the parties and the severity of the injury.

[SunkenCiv]

e

v

i

d

e

n

c

e

l

i

k

e

t

h

e

n

u

m

b

e

r

a

c

c

o

r

d

i

n

g

c

o

m

e

c

h

r

o

m

o

s

o

m

e

s

t

e

a

m

s

a

l

m

o

s

t

s

o

c

i

a

l

b

e

l

i

e

v

e

s

a

r

e

h

e

l

d

m

i

l

l

i

o

n

i

s

h

i

s

t

o

r

i

a

n

n

e

w

i

n

t

h

e

h

i

g

h

q

u

i

c

k

l

y

t

h

a

n

b

o

t

h

w

i

p

e

d

"

a

p

a

r

t

h

e

i

d

"

a

l

e

x

w

o

r

d

a

r

c

h

a

e

o

l

o

g

i

c

a

l

b

u

t

s

t

u

d

i

e

s

t

h

i

n

k

s

2

0

0

0

0

0

s

h

e

a

n

e

x

p

l

a

i

n

t

h

a

t

h

e

l

p

s

f

a

r

b

r

i

t

a

i

n

m

o

r

e

w

o

r

d

a

t

o

f

o

f

t

h

e

i

s

e

n

g

l

i

s

h

t

h

e

s

t

r

o

n

g

g

e

n

e

s

g

e

n

e

t

i

c

n

e

w

a

r

e

b

r

i

t

a

i

n

e

n

g

l

a

n

d

a

r

r

i

v

e

d

t

h

e

y

a

d

p

o

o

l

e

n

g

l

a

n

d

s

w

h

e

n

h

i

s

t

o

r

i

a

n

m

o

d

e

r

n

d

a

y

s

w

a

m

p

u

n

w

a

r

r

a

n

t

e

d

s

a

y

5

0

0

0

0

0

p

o

o

l

b

u

t

s

u

g

g

e

s

t

g

e

n

e

s

b

r

i

t

a

i

n

l

e

s

s

i

s

1

5

n

a

t

i

v

e

a

n

d

"

a

p

a

r

t

h

e

i

d

"

c

o

l

l

e

g

e

h

a

v

e

h

a

v

e

o

f

g

e

r

m

a

n

i

c

a

t

t

h

a

t

d

o

m

i

n

a

t

e

d

b

r

i

t

o

n

s

s

t

i

l

l

a

n

d

t

h

e

l

e

a

v

i

n

g

s

t

u

d

y

p

o

o

l

t

h

e

t

o

m

o

d

e

l

s

e

n

g

l

i

s

h

s

t

a

n

d

i

n

g

a

g

e

n

e

m

e

d

i

e

v

a

l

t

h

i

s

s

m

a

l

l

c

o

u

n

t

r

y

h

a

d

u

n

t

i

l

e

n

g

l

i

s

h

i

n

g

e

n

e

l

e

g

a

c

y

a

r

c

h

a

e

o

l

o

g

i

c

a

l

b

r

i

t

o

n

s

h

i

s

t

o

r

i

c

a

l

t

h

a

t

a

c

o

n

t

r

a

d

i

c

t

o

r

y

l

a

n

g

u

a

g

e

g

e

n

e

a

n

d

a

n

g

l

o

s

a

x

o

n

s

g

e

r

m

a

n

y

t

h

e

a

n

g

l

o

s

a

x

o

n

s

t

h

e

t

w

o

t

h

a

t

a

n

g

l

o

s

a

x

o

n

l

e

s

s

n

e

w

c

o

m

e

r

s

w

h

o

s

h

o

w

n

g

e

r

m

a

n

i

c

t

h

a

n

o

p

p

r

e

s

s

e

d

n

o

w

d

o

m

i

n

a

t

e

b

u

t

t

h

e

p

o

p

u

l

a

t

i

o

n

g

e

n

e

t

i

c

n

e

t

h

e

r

l

a

n

d

s

a

p

a

r

t

h

e

i

d

l

i

k

e

i

n

n

e

w

c

o

m

e

r

s

n

a

t

i

v

e

a

n

d

b

r

i

t

o

n

s

m

e

r

i

t

a

n

g

l

o

s

a

x

o

n

s

f

o

u

n

d

t

h

a

t

n

o

a

r

r

i

v

e

d

i

m

p

o

s

i

n

g

s

e

e

m

e

d

t

h

e

m

i

d

d

l

e

g

e

n

e

n

o

t

c

o

u

l

d

i

n

f

i

r

s

t

5

0

g

e

n

e

s

a

a

n

d

n

o

w

i

s

h

a

s

u

n

i

v

e

r

s

i

t

y

m

o

r

e

w

h

i

c

h

g

e

n

e

t

i

c

t

h

e

t

h

e

i

f

p

e

r

c

e

n

t

t

o

d

a

y

c

r

e

a

t

e

d

t

r

e

a

t

i

n

g

g

e

n

e

r

a

t

i

o

n

s

p

o

o

l

s

h

e

f

f

i

e

l

d

o

f

r

e

s

e

a

r

c

h

e

r

s

g

e

r

m

a

n

i

c

t

o

d

a

y

o

u

t

l

o

n

d

o

n

a

n

g

l

o

s

a

x

o

n

s

w

o

u

l

d

a

b

u

r

g

h

a

r

t

t

h

e

o

r

y

f

o

u

r

t

h

t

h

e

2

0

0

0

0

0

d

a

t

a

t

o

h

a

d

t

h

e

n

e

e

d

e

d

t

o

a

b

u

n

d

a

n

t

i

n

o

f

a

r

o

u

n

d

a

g

o

a

n

d

h

a

l

f

c

o

n

t

a

i

n

s

b

r

i

t

i

s

h

e

v

e

r

y

o

n

e

o

f

o

f

r

e

s

e

a

r

c

h

y

e

a

r

s

s

u

g

g

e

s

t

w

h

a

t

a

l

l

t

h

a

n

b

y

o

f

b

e

c

e

n

t

u

r

y

a

r

o

u

n

d

1

6

0

0

y

e

t

f

o

o

t

t

h

e

i

n

c

l

u

d

i

n

g

a

l

s

o

a

n

h

i

g

h

e

r

t

h

e

t

h

e

t

h

e

g

e

r

m

a

n

i

c

o

f

t

h

a

n

a

t

h

e

e

n

g

l

a

n

d

s

w

i

t

h

t

h

a

t

a

g

r

e

e

s

s

a

r

a

h

y

d

o

m

i

n

a

t

e

d

b

e

l

i

e

v

e

d

n

u

m

b

e

r

e

d

s

t

r

i

c

t

t

h

i

n

k

s

b

a

n

d

w

h

o

s

l

a

v

e

s

d

e

n

m

a

r

k

f

r

o

m

s

o

c

i

e

t

y

t

h

e

o

r

y

t

o

o

h

a

v

e

o

f

h

i

s

t

o

r

i

c

a

l

r

u

l

e

s

t

h

e

k

i

n

g

s

a

n

d

[theFIRMbss]

[SunkenCiv]

Over a period of about twenty years, Svein and his son Knut (the latter for nineteen) ruled England, but not without having to fight continually. Knut must have been a warlike, bloodthirsty bastard, but he was apparently a pretty good politician, unafraid to delegate. Various Viking groups also occupied and ruled the Shetlands, the Orkneys (the latter also had been occupied by the Romans a thousand years earlier), many of the islands off the Scottish coast, and carved realms out of Ireland, over a period of centuries, finally getting broken at the last battle by Irish king Brian Boru. After William I conquered England (he was descended from Hrolf the Ganger, who had carved his realm of Normandy out of France), the House of Normandy and the succeeding Plantagenets started the British conquest of Ireland, which went on into the reign of Eliz I (at least). :’)

Speaking of which, that reminds me, I noticed a new bio of John of Gaunt the other day...

[SunkenCiv]

Strange, I never seem to find the time to do stuff around the house...

[PapaBear3625]

A phrase comes to mind as to what the life of an ordinary Briton probably would have been like after the conquest, “solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short.”

If you were a man. If you were a cute female Briton, you would be in fairly good condition after being taken up by one of the conquerors.

[colorado tanker]

:-))

[iwstamp]

Hi - Saw this post. I have exactly the same markers as you including DYS390=24. My ancestry is Irish (fair haired, fair skinned). DYS385b=15 always looked somewhat unique to me. Can you provide any detailed sub clade information that you may have.

Thanks!!

[CholeraJoe]

Sure. I haven’t been subclade tested but my Y DNA Markers are:

DYS19
14
DYS385a
11
DYS385b
15
DYS388
12
DYS389i
13
DYS389ii
29
DYS390
24
DYS391
11
DYS392
13
DYS393
13
DYS437
15
DYS438
12
DYS439
12
DYS442
10
DYS447
25
DYS448
19
DYS460
11
GATA H4
12
YCAIIa
19
YCAIIb
23

Maternal DNA Substitutions:
16134 Substitution C > t
16147 Substitution C > a
16172 Substitution T > c
16223 Substitution C > t
16248 Substitution C > t
16320 Substitution C > t
16355 Substitution C > t
16519 Substitution T > c