Posted on 07/05/2009 1:32:21 PM PDT by SampleMan
I would welcome fellow Freeper input on an exchange I had with the police last night.
First a little background. I've got 20 years in the military, started out my life giving police officers a great deal of respect and knee jerking to their defense. Over the course of years, however, I've lost a lot of respect for the police via watching continual police traffic violations, watching unprofessional behavior and seeing shows of petty tyranny over their fellow citizens.
Although I'd still like to be wholeheartedly pro-law and think the way to get respectable enforcement officers is to demand professionalism, I find that my opinions here on FR often gets me labeled a "cop hater". Unfortunately, I'm quickly becoming callous to that particular "insult".
So here is my experience from last night. I took my daughters to see the fireworks downtown. Being crowded I sat them up on a 5' tall brick pillar with a 36' flat square top. Shortly after I had two police officers approach me and rudely demand to know if those were my children. I don't react well to rude. Anyway I quickly claimed them and was told, again rudely, to remove them from the pillar. Now this pillar is not on public property, so I asked them if the property owner (CSX railway) had complained, "No" then I asked them if the property owner had asked them to keep people off the pillar, "No". I then told them that I didn't understand the legality of their request. This is when they both puffed up like peacocks.
I was then informed that "They" were making the complaint. At this point I told them that I would comply (and started lifting my girls down), but that they had no basis to make a complaint and were abusing their authority. They didn't take this well and the short man then started screaming that he had the authority as a public servant, to which I calmly pointed out that no one in the public had voiced a complaint, that in fact I was the public, and I failed to see how he was being my servant.
My children had now been on the ground for a while, but apparently frustrated they then began accusing me of endangering my children's safety. To which I calmly acknowledged their opinion, and then asked if they were familiar with the legal precedence of parental authority in such matters.
This is where they both appeared to want to cuff me, so I pointed out that I had complied with their dubious orders, but did not intend to kow tow to their logic. They moved about 20' away and glared at me until the fireworks were over.
Now let me be clear, if anyone from CSX had asked me, or if the officers had conveyed that CSX wished for people to stay off, I would have complied without complaint. My beef is essentially that they took it upon themselves to create a problem where none existed and approached me like a couple of bullies in the school yard. Perhaps it’s just my age or a push back to the totalitarian nature of our new Federal Government, but I'm in no mood to play the role of the sheep.
OK fire away folks. I'm sure a few of you think that they should have tazed me and put my kids in protective custody for the night.
>> please show me in the law where the police are empowered to act on fears of a private tort.
Ever hear of a traffic cop? Do you figure they stand there waving traffic by because they just really enjoy watching cars pass? They do it to avoid accidents (fears of private property damage/ tort), and to alleviate traffic. That’s just one example.
Off-duty cops are very often hired to patrol events like this to watch for unsafe behavior. On-duty cops are also occasionally given the same task if an event is big enough to demand police presence.
SnakeDoc
And the people that hate cops were bullies in high school and now bully their wives and kids as adults.
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You must know that huge numbers of cops were in the bully/bullied groups in school and either went into law enforcement to continue being a bully or to become a bully and get out their frustrations.. almost none are from the vast middle that just went about their studies and chased girls. Based on the number of cops arrested for domestic battery charges and the HUGE divorce rate (remember being a cop isn’t dangerous ,, it isn’t even in the top 10 occupations for danger) based mostly on ALCOHOL ABUSE, I would say cops definately come from the group you say the “haters” come from ,, classic PROJECTION...
You might want to look into the “personality” tests something like 80% of police agencies use to screen prospects ... it isn’t really a personality test ,, they aren’t looking for Andy Griffith ... the “personality” tests are actually IQ tests ,, they generally DQ anyone with an IQ above 104 (average IQ plus the margin of error on the tests) as they don’t want thinkers , they want compliant authority junkies that will be happy to do a boring job year after year without quitting and costing the agency recruiting dollars... all those unnecessary branches such as swat and dea are merely ways to keep the real head cases happy in their positions and as a way to funnel extra pay to them.
Once I find a lawyer who is willing to take a case on contingency for the violation of my rights, I WILL sue the township. If I can't, I will settle for an organization known for defending my rights.
Cops are nothing more than mobile tax-collectors anymore. My dad told me about how everybody in town used to know the cops when he was younger. Now they are abusers, many of them domestically. You have to know when, but fight the battle. One more tip--carry your video camera with you! I will from now on. Keep them honest...and let them smoke under the collar!
>> And it was a 9&11 year old on a 5’ over dirt. Is 1 ft too high, how about 3 foot? How about you let the parent decide when it isn’t a clear cut issue of moral hazard?
Perhaps the property owner didn’t trust parents to decide, and decided to trust cops instead. That’s his prerogative, not yours.
SnakeDoc
Yep, I doubt the kids were in any danger. Which points to the whole issue. People here saying “was the pole yours? then get off it” and then those saying you should obey the cops regardless.
Perhaps the cops shoulda looked for real trouble makers and not bother this guy.
I have done both....patrol and corrections. You are spot on. Funny thing, I have never witnessed anyone react well to, or any situation turn out well when rude or uncivil behavior was involved...LE or civilian....law abiding, criminal or otherwise. Why start there?
“Cops frequently protect the interests of private property owners.”
True. This is where the phrase “rent a cop” comes from. Road contractors and supermarkets often employ off duty officers.
“For events like this, cops are often hired to patrol private property for the specific purpose of limiting the liability of property owners (i.e. accident avoidance).”
There seems to have been no mention of this, thsu it seems unlikely.
Also, CSX had opened their property to the public.
Unfortunately, it seems the cops were wrong.
What is your position on the issue of “peace officer” to “law enforcement” raised in an earlier post? Is this change significant? Why?
>> There seems to have been no mention of this, thsu it seems unlikely.
Why? A cop, on-duty or rent-a-cop, has no need to justify his authority to a guy that wants his kid to sit on a pillar (a pillar owned by someone else).
>> Also, CSX had opened their property to the public.
And apparently invited cops to keep an eye on the public. The fact that a building is open to the public does not give the public license to do whatever it wants.
>> What is your position on the issue of “peace officer” to “law enforcement” raised in an earlier post? Is this change significant? Why?
Doesn’t seem particularly significant. The authority remains the same regardless of the vernacular.
SnakeDoc
beaten anyone lately? Sodomized anyone with your baton?
One more tip—carry your video camera with you!
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Video cameras defuse a situation , they rarely capture it because they are obvious ... a digital voice recorder works wonders as they are tiny and concealable ,,, I was in court in April on 2 dog related charges , the animal control officer (LEO with police powers) just dropped everything when I pulled my Olympus recorder out and stated that I had everything on tape if I needed to verify any statements made previously.. charge 1 dismissed , charge 2 not guilty...
Saved me over $500 in fines just by having his own contradictory statements available and irrefutable. I wish I had the recorder with me for my last 2 traffic stops .. in both cases I contested the cops TESTI-LIED and I lost when I should have had a good chance of winning.
Your stupid comments have been reported.
‘They deal with idiots on an hourly basis and get tired of the BS like any human would. “
Well perhaps if they stayed out of Krispy Kreme they could deal with some normal people.
Not in my books!
They were the problem.
Almost petty tyranny. Had they cuffed you, that would have been tyranny. We citizens are merely to comply, not comply and lawfully disagree.
‘Ever hear of a traffic cop? “
traffic cops enforce traffic law and collect revenue, err fines, from people that they catch not abiding by the traffic laws. traffic cops don’t protect private property.
Directing traffic does not collect revenue.
SnakeDoc
‘Why? A cop, on-duty or rent-a-cop, has no need to justify his authority “
Uh yes he does as long as we live in a free country.
“Directing traffic does not collect revenue.”
traffic cops = revenuers
I’m on your side on this one. They decided to create a scene and demonstrate their “authority” over the local populace.
It’s the same thing at DUI checkpoints. The officers have no right to know where you have been nor to ask where you are going. I’m freely within my right to not answer because the government does not have that right to know where I’m going at all.
We are becoming a totalitarian state and there are a lot of people who will give in simply because they are police and we are taught from birth to respect police officers. I’m sorry but respect is something earned, not freely given.
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