Posted on 07/05/2009 1:32:21 PM PDT by SampleMan
I would welcome fellow Freeper input on an exchange I had with the police last night.
First a little background. I've got 20 years in the military, started out my life giving police officers a great deal of respect and knee jerking to their defense. Over the course of years, however, I've lost a lot of respect for the police via watching continual police traffic violations, watching unprofessional behavior and seeing shows of petty tyranny over their fellow citizens.
Although I'd still like to be wholeheartedly pro-law and think the way to get respectable enforcement officers is to demand professionalism, I find that my opinions here on FR often gets me labeled a "cop hater". Unfortunately, I'm quickly becoming callous to that particular "insult".
So here is my experience from last night. I took my daughters to see the fireworks downtown. Being crowded I sat them up on a 5' tall brick pillar with a 36' flat square top. Shortly after I had two police officers approach me and rudely demand to know if those were my children. I don't react well to rude. Anyway I quickly claimed them and was told, again rudely, to remove them from the pillar. Now this pillar is not on public property, so I asked them if the property owner (CSX railway) had complained, "No" then I asked them if the property owner had asked them to keep people off the pillar, "No". I then told them that I didn't understand the legality of their request. This is when they both puffed up like peacocks.
I was then informed that "They" were making the complaint. At this point I told them that I would comply (and started lifting my girls down), but that they had no basis to make a complaint and were abusing their authority. They didn't take this well and the short man then started screaming that he had the authority as a public servant, to which I calmly pointed out that no one in the public had voiced a complaint, that in fact I was the public, and I failed to see how he was being my servant.
My children had now been on the ground for a while, but apparently frustrated they then began accusing me of endangering my children's safety. To which I calmly acknowledged their opinion, and then asked if they were familiar with the legal precedence of parental authority in such matters.
This is where they both appeared to want to cuff me, so I pointed out that I had complied with their dubious orders, but did not intend to kow tow to their logic. They moved about 20' away and glared at me until the fireworks were over.
Now let me be clear, if anyone from CSX had asked me, or if the officers had conveyed that CSX wished for people to stay off, I would have complied without complaint. My beef is essentially that they took it upon themselves to create a problem where none existed and approached me like a couple of bullies in the school yard. Perhaps it’s just my age or a push back to the totalitarian nature of our new Federal Government, but I'm in no mood to play the role of the sheep.
OK fire away folks. I'm sure a few of you think that they should have tazed me and put my kids in protective custody for the night.
You should have kept your mouth shut, did as you were ordered, and produced your papers.
Precisely. Even without the drinking — kids and heights are generally not a good thing for property owners.
Then, when the kid falls and cracks his skull, parents will ask, “why didn’t the owner have security guards or cops patrolling to keep the public safe? One injured kid is one too many!” Then come the lawyers, the skyrocketing insurance rates, etc.
But, when the cop intrudes on your fun prior to the kid cracking his head ... he’s a bully on a power trip.
No win.
SnakeDoc
Then waterboarded them.
Last time I checked, America was still not a police state.
Obama, MS Nappy, Holder, ad nauseam may succeed this week.
I’ve noticed too that many younger cops are trained to assert their authority and dominance in just about any situation, more so than the older ones. Probably because the public they deal with (not John Q’s taking their kids to the fireworks) have lost whatever reflexive “respect” (or wariness) of the police.
I’m not a cop but I did do a stint in corrections, where the clientel isn’t the best demographic. I found that as long as the cons knew you wern’t being weak, being civil went a long way to keeping things smooth and even. Perhaps some think saying “please” or “thank you”, or smiling when saying something like “what were you thinking of?” is weak, but it beats getting into a fistfight every other shift.
Cons are so used to being crapped on by their fellows and CO’s, that treating them with basic civility would most often lead to them being civil in return. It worked in the lockup, and it would likely work on the street. It’s a much neglected tactic.
In an 8 hour shift, plenty of crap is going to find you, why go look for it?
You are absolutely right, but the entity that gets to decide about that property's use is the owner. In this case the owner had opened up their parking lot to the public and I was doing no damage to their property. As I said in my thread, had CSX wanted me off, I'd have done so without question. If I invite you onto my property, do you feel it OK for two cops to come demand that you get off of my garden wall?
I mean that because our society is so over-legislated, the police have become the arbiters of our liberty. It’s not their fault. It’s ours for allowing the government to have too much power.
Concur, and one of the reasons I posted this is because of a little soul searching about whether I over reacted. Down deep, I want to respect the police. But I did not go looking for trouble. These two cops began the entire exchange by treating me like dirt. My first reaction to that was to calmly, and yes politely, ask if there was a complaint. That doesn't seem like cop bashing to me.
Are you psychic? Or are you just making things up like an angry child?
Think what you will ,, I don’t hesitate to push back on them if I am in the right.. as I am clean cut , 40ish and have kids I could easily see myself being used as an example to those within a 100 ft. circle of myself in his situation... That’s what they were doing by picking on someone that they assumed would be compliant ..
You owe the poster an apology for your BAC assumption.
What an amazing statement of facts not in evidence. Don't you wish to charge me with hating their children and wanting to rape their wives as well? You've really missed an opportunity.
Expecting professional behavior now equates to wanting them dead? Truly amazing hyperbole.
I dont think you hate cops but from reading your post it appears you are dead set on having some silly confrontation with a cop. They deal with idiots on an hourly basis and get tired of the BS like any human would. Arguing with them over something as meaningless as you described is beeeeeeeeging for trouble and pointless. Eventually you will run into one who is really an arsehole with a chip on his shoulder (like you have) and you will reallllly have a reason to dislike them.
I think most people would be surprised at just how many cops get fired
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True enough but in my area that just means that their commute increases by 10 minutes or so when they go to work for the next county over or a municipal police force. We lost 40% of the Apopka FL police force in 18 months back around 2003/2004 due to dozens of well documented corruption investigations ,, most quit and the investigations were dropped... also most now work for the Orange County sherriffs office
>> [...] but the entity that gets to decide about that property’s use is the owner. In this case the owner had opened up their parking lot to the public and I was doing no damage to their property.
I see no indiciation that the officer’s action was contrary to the wishes of the property owner. You weren’t damaging property — but you were engaging in behavior that the officer deemed unsafe (and apparently hassling the people tasked with determining what activity was unsafe).
It appears the entity either hired off-duty cops, or requested the presence of on-duty cops — and allowed them to make the independent determination of what constituted unsafe behavior.
>> If I invite you onto my property, do you feel it OK for two cops to come demand that you get off of my garden wall?
If I am on your property, I have no reason to declare my right to sit on the garden wall. I also have no particular right to request the credentials of someone asking me to remove myself from a wall that is not my own.
The cops did not need to show you a signed note from the owner to prove that they were acting on his behalf. It wasn’t your property, so you should assume that the cop’s authority exceeds your own, and remove yourself without hassling them.
SnakeDoc
More facts not in evidence. I would rather my children be free citizens unafraid to stand up for their liberties. Sad that some confuse tyranny with justice when they think they are on the stronger side.
Cops today bear almost no resemblance to cops of yesteryear. The purpose of having “peace officers” has been twisted into having a group of law-breaking law enforcers hassling regular citizens and trying to drum up revenue for their municipalities by issuing tickets.
I can’t count the number of times I’ve seen cops break the law and there’s no one to hold them to any standards of legality.
It seems that being the law means being above the law.
Screw cops! (and I’m related to one)
Then they must have lied when I asked them that question.
I’m a cop that’s got a story for you.
Generally I’ve backed the ‘public’ 100% over my time on the police dept. but, you know, I’m starting to look at all people in the same light.
One time I was working off duty (and for free I may add) in a parking lot where there is normally some trouble when there is no police presence. (And it has to do with a fireworks show too)
The property owner has a rail and signs that say “Keep off.” I also put up the yellow tape that we use at work to make another, 3rd boundry.
During the event, two different people (actually several but only 2 got stupid) crossed over and sat on the other side of the railing. Both of them became irate and started yelling at me. I asked them both if they had seen the signs, the rail or the yellow tape. They did but they totally disregarded all three. I thought each of them were going to become combative. I had my cruiser there and was in full uniform.
Even though they acted uncivily etc. I didn’t arrest them, didn’t cite them and spoke to them in a respectful manner while they made idiots out of themselves in front of hundreds of people.
I wonder if all people are morons or just some? I can tell alot more of the same type of stories and I’m sure alot of people here have their own ‘bad cop’ stories as well. In fact, I have a few moron cop stories of my own.
Some idiots wear badges and some don’t. Some good people are cops and some are not.
As far as insults, I hear them all the time. For some reason because I’m wearing a uniform and work for the police dept. they can fire away with their insults.
And don’t even get me started on the lying liberal newspapers.
Why do I stay? Because I’m not going to let hate get the better part of me. Because there are alot of good people out there and some who are struggling that I may be able to give a word of encouragement to. Being able to get my hands on real criminals. It’s what keeps me going.
Lemonade out of lemons, you know, that whole bit.
The next time some cop gives you attitude, call him on it. Ask him what the problem is. You may wake him up. He may realize he was being an ass. Do like it says in scripture, return insults with kindness and pile the hot coals on his head.
Here endeth the rambling.
Your case for tort reform accepted, please show me in the law where the police are empowered to act on fears of a private tort. And it was a 9&11 year old on a 5' over dirt. Is 1 ft too high, how about 3 foot? How about you let the parent decide when it isn't a clear cut issue of moral hazard?
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