Posted on 01/26/2009 7:43:56 PM PST by Gordon Greene
A group of Evanston friends thought it was funny when a man fell on the ice, but the situation quickly turned ugly when the fallen man drew a gun and shot one of them.
The incident occurred about 12:30 a.m. Saturday when the victim was standing outside with friends near 704 Florence in Evanston, according to a report from Evanston police.
When the group saw a man fall on the ice, they started to laugh at him, but he wasn't amused. The man pulled a gun and fired a shot, striking the victim in the ankle, the report said.
The victim was treated at a local hospital, the report said. No one else was injured.
The gunman was described only as a man wearing dark clothing.
Further information was not immediately available.
My point wasnt so much about "ice" as it is that shootings, IMHO, are going to rise in the USA to levels we never thought possible. All over the most piddly of things and arguments years ago you would laugh off, often people taking their own lives over job losses and other things people long ago just put up with and toughed out. It will be absolutely wonderful if I am woefully wrong.
> I’ve heard that New Zealand is beautiful.
It is. New Zealand is Paradise, and it is the only country that I would be happy to fight and die for.
> But, NZ already is more socialist than the U.S.
Rubbish. Who told you that crap? We have a Conservative government in place, and they are under control. You have a marxist/socialist government in Washington, and they will require you to do as you are told.
Whose government is more “socialist”? Yours is!!!
> When we complain about Obama, we fear our country will become more like countries such as New Zealand.
America should be so lucky as to become more like New Zealand. In your wildest dreams you might just make it almost. But not quite.
> New Zealand has the things we oppose, such as socialized medicine.
New Zealand’s socialized medicine is wonderful, and anybody who would not want something similar are bloody idiots and uninformed fools. Morons. Neanderthals. Sorry to be so blunt, but if you know what you are doing, socialized medicine is an essential ingredient to operating a civilized society.
Rather like having central sewerage systems: socialized medicine is an essential public health measure. Anything less is uncivilized and primitive.
> Any American who moves there can’t be a conservative seeking freedom.
Au contraire. Americans who move here know what Freedom really means, and they want to live it for real. Like I do.
> So put me on your “plonker” list and then you can sit there imagining that I am hurt by being deprived of your sickening european ideas. Please, plonker me, PLEASE.
Your wish is my command, Plonker. Consider it done. You are a Plonker, by your permission and by Royal Decree.
> In america, we don’t like waiting for permission from our overlords.
No, instead you prefer for your Overlords to drive aeroplanes into your buildings.
BTW, Hell will freeze over before you ever catch me spelling my Beloved Country New Zealand in lowercase. Not only are you a Plonker but you are a disloyal and disrespectful Plonker. For shame.
> You have no idea what the hell you are talking about. and I dont’ have the patience to explain the concept of the second amendment or the bill of rights to a pompous foreigner convinced of his superiority.
More accurately, you couldn't find your arse with both hands and a roadmap, mate, and you have Buckley's Chance of explaining your Second Amendment to me, and far less your Bill of Rights. It is a wonder they let you wander around at large without a babysitter.
And yes, I am convinced of my superiority because it is a matter of fact. Take an Aspirin and get used to it.
> BTW, I never called you european.
Liar.
> I only indicated that you have the same disgusting attitude.
Bullshirt.
> I consider it an insult to accuse someone of “european” ideas.
You should consider yourself privileged to be considered a European, Plonker.
> I meant it as an insult, and I expected you can take it as an insult.
Then you won't mind if I return the insult: maybe one day you might aspire to being a European. Until then, you are a wannabe Plonker who wishes he were a Marine.
> Unfortunately you just weren’t bright enough to pick up on it.
Joke's on you, Plonker wannabe European wannabe Marine. You're a walking-talking joke and a disgrace to your Nation.
So sue me.
DieHard,
Either you’re joking with me, or you misunderstand the definition of conservatism. You’re perfectly welcome to have gun control and socialized medicine in your country, and you’re perfectly welcome to prefer to have those types of policies/programs in place.
But, gun control and socialized medicine are NOT examples of conservatism. Those are examples of SOCIALISM. Those are the very policies we conservatives in the U.S. oppose.
There are some differences in the definition of conservatism in different parts of the world. Maybe you can explain how you define conservatism and in what way you consider New Zealand to be an example of a “free” country led by a conservative government.
Gidday mate, you write:
> There are some differences in the definition of conservatism in different parts of the world.
That is a very astute and intelligent observation, and I think this is the first time I have seen it articulated on the FRee Republic. There would be some differences between the US definition and the NZ definition of “Conservatism”.
The US Definition is an interesting one, because in my view it is unique in the world. It is different to ous in NZ, but I believe it is also different to what is used in the UK, Australia, Canada, and elsewhere.
As I hope to show here, in the US you have done some interesting coupling of some quite unrelated concepts, whereas that isn’t necessarily the case elsewhere.
> But, gun control and socialized medicine are NOT examples of conservatism. Those are examples of SOCIALISM.
Only in the United States. Your definition of Conservatism is driven by your Constitution and your National priorities. It is a national priority for the US to have an armed populace — it isn’t here. And it is not a national priority to have medical services administered by the Government — so it falls to your individuals to provide that.
It is different here. We do not have a “Constitution” per se, so that does not drive our definition of “Conservatism”. We have a collection of pieces of legislation which, when viewed in aggregate, form a constitutional base instead.
In New Zealand it IS a national priority to have a healthy populace. We provide for that as one of our core functions of government. We also have privatized medicine available — you can have as much medical care as you want to pay for — but as a matter of national priority there is a baseline level of medical care available to all, as a matter of right. No New Zealander in his right mind would want to do away with that right: we would defend it as vigorously as you would defend your Second Amendment. And it works well.
That is as much a national priority for us as having a strong military is for the US. Deviating from that would be a LIBERAL thing to do.
On gun control, we have one of the highest per-capita ownderships of firearms in the world — it is right up there, almost with the US. Lots and lots and lots of guns. We can own as many as we want.
We do not have a constitutional right to own firearms, unlike the US. It is just another posession, just like an automobile.
And just like an automobile, we have rules about owning them — which is only just and fair: guns can be dangerous so there must be rules for their safe use and ownership. If you own an automobile, you must have it registered and, if you want to drive it you must be a licensed driver.
Similarly in New Zealand for firearms. They have tried (and failed) to register firearms, so instead we license our owners. Just like automobile drivers. Nothing more onerous than that.
We do not want psychopaths owning guns. We do not want clowns shooting at people if they slip on ice. That’s just retarded. That’s not “Conservatism” to allow morons to own guns — that’s just dam’nfoolishness.
Conservatives oppose dam’nfoolishness. In NZ it would be a LIBERAL thing to do to provide imbeciles with firearms.
> Those are the very policies we conservatives in the U.S. oppose.
As so you should. Your constitutional context says so.
> Maybe you can explain how you define conservatism and in what way you consider New Zealand to be an example of a “free” country led by a conservative government.
Conservatism is all about preseving the status quo and traditional values and ideals. Liberalism is about implementing change, challenging traditional values and ideals, and progressing new ideas. Socialism is about acting for the collective good, and Individualism is about celebrating the rights of the individual.
In the US you have locked Conservatism with Individualism, and Liberalism with Socialisn.
We haven’t. These concepts remain quite loose and separate. We like it better that way. Here is an example:
In New Zealand we do not have the legal concept of “Personal Injury Liability”, so we cannot be sued for it. Property Damage, yes, definitely. Personal Injury, no.
Therefore we are free to do all kinds of dangerous activities that your insurance people would never allow you to do in the United States, for fear of Liability.
Most of the “Xtreme Sports” that you see on TV and that eventually make it over to the US were invented and perfected here in New Zealand. The tamest of them is Bungee Jumping: it is so tame we encourage tourists to do it. We get up to much more crazy stuff than that, though. (CONCEPT=INDIVIDUALISM)
If we hurt ourselves we will be looked after by our medical system. We cannot be sued for hurting someone else: that person will be looked after by the medical system — whatever it takes to make them fit and well. (CONCEPT=SOCIALISM)
This means that our courts are free from frivolous law suits: nobody gets sued for millions of dollars for personal injury. Cannot happen. Even if an American gets hurt in New Zealand, he cannot sue for millions — good luck trying! Many have and all have failed: our judges just put a stupid look on their faces and say “Personal Injury? What’s That??” Frivolous lawsuits therefore just don’t happen: they tend to be expensive and almost no lawyer will take a case on “contingency” with a hope of getting rich quick. (CONCEPT=CONSERVATISM)
Our Prime Minister is relatively alot more powerful than your President, but he only gets three years to do what he wants before we get to throw him out. And, because of the way our system is structured, his government itself is always at peril of collapsing. This is because we have structured Parliament in such a way that we usually get coalition governments: two or more parties are needed to form government. (CONCEPT=DEMOCRACY)
Like our current Conservative Government, for instance: it is a coalition between National and ACT. If we really want to get rid of this Government, it is merely a question of hammering away at ACT and getting them to leave the Coalition. Then the government is a single Confidence vote away from toppling. Just like that. (CONCEPT=DEMOCRACY)
In theory, this means that our Government is much more afraid of the general populace than your Government is. We do not have an “Upper House” and a “Lower House” — it’s just Parliament and that’s it. (CONCEPT=CONSERVATISM, DEMOCRACY)
So in New Zealand, I pay Income Tax, and if I own property, I pay Rates. I pay a levy for my medical, and I pay a consuption tax called “GST”. That’s it: we do not have states so we do not have State Taxes. Our taxes, in aggregate, are fairly low and quite stable. This means we get to keep a fair chunk of our wealth. (CONCEPT=CAPITALISM)
See how that works? Because we haven’t tightly coupled our concepts, we have have a mix of concepts that work well for us. That is why no NZ Conservative in his right mind would want to do away with “Socialized” Medicine: the concept of “Socialized” isn’t politically loaded the same way as it is in the US with “Socialism”.
And with Gun Control, we are perfectly free to prevent morons and lunatics from owning guns, without challenging our Conservative foundations — whereas if you try to do so in the US you are challenging the Second Amendment. It’s not “loaded” in the same way as it is in the US.
And how will you choose the one to wield the power of determining the dangerous weeds from the beneficial vegetation? No "weeding" process I have yet seen tried so far has the slightest beneficial effect on the crime rate.
I'm going to rudely and in an uninvited fashion, ping this thread because I lived in NZ for 15 years as a gun owner, and now live in the US, as a gun owner. If you'd like my unbiased opinion on something comparative (because I love both countries, and know their cultures intimately from a first-person perspective), let me know.
Cheers,
Starfleet
> I’m going to rudely and in an uninvited fashion, ping this thread because I lived in NZ for 15 years as a gun owner, and now live in the US, as a gun owner.
Welcome, FRiend!
> If you’d like my unbiased opinion on something comparative (because I love both countries, and know their cultures intimately from a first-person perspective), let me know.
I would be grateful for your views on this, Starfleet! Yours would be a very interesting perspective. Depending on when you spent your 15 years here, you might have seen some very interesting governments come-and-go.
Right now we are at a politically fascinating time in our Nation’s history: having been savaged by nine years of Nanny State, we have emerged out the other end with a truly weird mix of failed Free Market experiments one one hand, and failed Nanny State experiments on the other. John Key will have his hands full piecing things back together again!
> And how will you choose the one to wield the power of determining the dangerous weeds from the beneficial vegetation? No “weeding” process I have yet seen tried so far has the slightest beneficial effect on the crime rate.
Criminals will always be able to get guns: they will steal what they cannot buy. So “weeding” efforts will probably not affect the crime rate much.
The way that “weeding” is done here in NZ is imperfect, but it works reasonably well: it is done thru the Firearms Licencing process, which is administered by the cops.
When you apply for your license they require two referrees, one of which must be your spouse-or-next-of-kin, the other must be someone not living with you. The cops interview these people about your suitability to own firearms. You will either get your license or not depending on how those interviews go.
And naturally they will do a check of your criminal history.
You need your license to purchase firearms, and when you get them you must store them safely. The police can (and sometimes do) check up on you — particularly if you own handguns or other specially-endorsed firearms.
That is pretty much it. Subsequently, if you commit crimes and are found guilty, the cops can apply to the court to seize your firearms, and the court often accommodates such applications. And you can apply to the courts to have them returned.
Similarly, if you have a mental illness and are considered a danger to yourself and/or to others, your medical professional can do the same.
That is the extent of our weeding processes. It is crude and imperfect, but it works acceptably.
I was in NZ from 1991 to 2005. I was one of the commentators on Lindsey Perigo's short-lived Radio Liberty, have dined with Rodney Hyde, and am close friends with the fellow who wrote ACT's original manifesto. As a Kiwi, that might give you some idea of my political orientation :-)
My friends in NZ have kept me informed of the wonderful change that has swept Helen the Hideous from her thrown, along with her entire entourage of winged monkeys (if Michael Cullen ever burst into flames in front of me, I would not spare a drop of urine to extinguish him).
I think I have to agree with pretty much every assertion you made in response to Tired. There are a couple of clarifications I'd make (like the difference between NZ long gun and hand gun restrictions), but the trade off of ACC for no personal injury lawsuits was a stroke of brilliance. In fact, it is the only wholesale reduction in the power of lawyers to redistribute wealth that I have ever seen, anywhere, at any time.
If NZ implements a straight GST or Flat Tax, and got rid of its income tax, it would be the new financial Dubai of the southern hemisphere.
Anyway, God bless John Key and the ascendant right, and take care!
Yes, thank God he was armed and able to defend himself from laughing people.
I think you missed the oft repeated fact that an armed society is a polite society.
How have you managed to survive FR for almost a year? A close look at your posting history shows that you are nothing but a Casandra sniping at conservative issues.
I also understand that the government has vacillated between pretty far left socialists and pretty conservative/leaning libertarians.
So, are you to the point yet that you do not want any more American emigres, or are they welcome?
Cheers for that, mate! You write:
> ...but the trade off of ACC for no personal injury lawsuits was a stroke of brilliance. In fact, it is the only wholesale reduction in the power of lawyers to redistribute wealth that I have ever seen, anywhere, at any time.
I have had occasion to use ACC a couple of times, and it is brilliant, as you say.
One time I was training with my fellow Guardian Angels in self-defence. We always train in our boots and uniforms, on either concrete or grass, because that is how we will have to use our skills if they are ever called upon. It is pointless to train on soft mats if you are going to be fighting on concrete.
And so it was we were training on concrete, practising how to safely fall. My partner was our best martial artist, and it was my turn to fall.
If all had gone well, I should have rolled smartly off my left shoulder when he threw me, and gotten back up onto my feet immediately. But things did not go according to plan.
Instead, I landed with a crunch-munch onto my right shoulder, buggering it mightily — I was about 275 lbs back then, and every one of them were concentrated on about two square inches of shoulder blade. Ouch!
I lost all sensation from my elbow to fingertips on my right arm, and the entire shoulder dislocated. That smarted! And I got a mild concussion for my trouble.
Doctor’s visit, six months of physio (every-other-daily visits for the first month or so), pain killers, acupuncture — the lot — paid for by ACC. Right up until my shoulder was good as new.
(Typing during this time was not easy, but I managed to post on the Free Republic fairly regularly. I didn’t want to lose my touch-typing skills.)
That must have cost ACC a fortune. It cost me not one penny. I hate to think what it would have cost in the United States.
Had this happened in the US I suppose I might have been able to sue my training partner — after all, he did throw me onto concrete and I did get injured — but how fair is that? It’s not his fault I got hurt.
And I suppose I could have sued the charitable Trust which we operate under — but how fair is that? In fact, that would have been dumb because the Trust has no money to speak of, and as a Trustee I would be on the hook for the cost, as well as my fellow Trustees. How fair would that have been for them?
Nope, it was an accident, pure and simple. It was covered by ACC as an accident, which is what we pay our ACC levvies for.
In a litigious environment, our organization would need some fairly expensive insurance. And our insurers would probably insist that we don’t throw each other onto concrete, or train in our boots, or train with live blades, or do a whole host of dangerous things. These would be risks that most insurers wouldn’t accept, or if they did they would require premiums we couldn’t afford.
It also makes us personally careful: even tho’ ACC is going to fix us up if we hurt ourselves, we’re not going to get rich off of it, and recovering from an injury is still a b!tch in anybody’s language.
> If NZ implements a straight GST or Flat Tax, and got rid of its income tax, it would be the new financial Dubai of the southern hemisphere.
I am hoping that John Key has something like this in mind. His background is in international finance, and implementing a Flat Tax based on consumption only would make an eminent amount of sense.
Governments, however, are addicted to tax: I have never seen one disappear, ever. It would take alot of courage to get rid of Income Tax: they would be tempted to somehow find a way to keep it.
This is something for us Conservatives to work on DownUnder.
Right on, mate. This economic slow motion train wreck might be the perfect catalyst. In a time when productivity must be encouraged, and not punished, for a society to stay alive, and consumption must be minimized, the Flat Tax is a perfect inoculation.
And yes, I sadly must agree that there is no example of a government peacefully giving up a tax that I am aware of.
BTW, good on ya for starting and promulgating Guardian Angles in NZ. Brilliant concept, outstanding civic example.
Nope.
> I have heard and read many good things about New Zealand.
Most of them are true!
> I’ve even occasionally fantasized about emigrating.
I recommend it, definitely!
> Our current administration certainly makes that more appealing.
I can easily understand why. The next four years are not going to be amongst America’s finest moments, I fear.
> One of the things that I hear that I like is that NZ has a strict immigration policy.
It’s fairly strict, but people do immigrate. I did, from Canada.
It is a good idea to come here as a visitor first, to see if the lifestyle is the sort of thing that you want: it is very different to America in many ways. It is more laid back, for one thing. And it is difficult to always get what you want when you want it.
For example, it is not uncommon for our cafes to make only enough food for what they think they will need for the day, and then run out. It isn’t because they’re short of food or anything, it’s just because they didn’t cook enough. Too bad, go somewhere else.
Now, that never happens in America, where they would prefer to make too much food and have to throw stuff away at the end of the day.
That took getting used to, for me.
The whole “24/7” thing doesn’t happen much here, either. Quitting time is quitting time and the shops close at quitting time. We have shopping 7 days a week, but not everything is open 7 days a week. And even then, 7 day shopping is a relatively new thing.
So if you are hungry for some Arugula and it is 3AM, you may be out of luck until tomorrow when the shops open.
We are bilingual, English and Maori. English is the most common language: everybody speaks it and it is unlikely to change.
> I also understand that the government has vacillated between pretty far left socialists and pretty conservative/leaning libertarians.
That is a fair assessment: we have parties that span the entire political spectrum, but mostly it alternates between center-left and center-right, and on occasion has been known to switch places (Free Market reform was a liberal government initiative, for instance, as was privatization)
It used to have some very wild swings. But since MMP came into being about 15 years ago these wild swings have been tempered quite a bit: MMP encourages large parties to form coalitions with smaller parties because getting an outright majority of the vote is nearly impossible (National came very close to succeeding this last election, though)
> So, are you to the point yet that you do not want any more American emigres, or are they welcome?
New Zealand always welcomes good immigrants: in fact, we need immigrants if our population is to avoid shrinking.
Plenty of Americans do immigrate, and they tend to fit in pretty well and they tend to make good Kiwis. If you are comfortable with the lifestyle and committed to what comes along with being a Kiwi, it is a great place to live and a fantastic place to raise kids.
New Zealand does permit dual citizenship.
> I have heard and read many good things about New Zealand.
I forgot to mention one thing: Taxes. Nobody likes to pay taxes, but ours are reasonably fair.
Our Inland Revenue Department (IRD) has the same draconian powers that your Internal Revenue Service (IRS) has. The IRD is not a government organization to be meddled with.
That said, they are about the easiest and most pleasant government organization you can imagine. And they are thoroughly competent and they tend to be fair. When you phone them they will answer with a person, and that person can usually help you with anything you need from the IRD.
They are easier to deal with than most banks.
I guess they have figured out that it is easier to fleece sheep if you don’t frighten them off, I don’t know — but they were a pleasant surprise.
Another thing worth knowing about New Zealand: there is no tipping here. None. Don’t tip in restaurants, don’t tip the taxi, don’t tip the bell-hop or the barman. Don’t tip anybody. It is not necessary and it is not wanted and we don’t do it.
Tourists sometimes tip: that is how we spot them as tourists.
I know your point was not about the ice... I was just commenting on the melodrama. The obligatory news headline was also expected. One could always pull a headline in support of an issue because the world has become so small (thanks to electronic media).
I don’t shrug off the fact the country is morally bankrupt and on the way to full blown Sodom and Gommorah. However, I’m not sure what we are supposed to do... should we just sit in the corner and cower? I don’t plan to. I teach my children well hoping they will make some difference while I try to be something more than just a blight on society myself. I’m sure you do the same... in the meantime, in certain measure there is humor in stories like this. Would I feel differently if the circumstances involved my own family or if things had turned out to be deadly? Yeah, I would. Humor has always been based in small part on others discomfort or ignorance. The ignorance of the man with the gun and the absurdity of the extreme measures he took make it humorous to an extent. Coupled with the callousness of the onlookers, it is a funny visual (and the fact no one died).
So there you go, that’s my two cents. Thank you for yours.
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