McGwire goes on Hall ballot along with Gwynn and Ripken

Yahoo! Sports/AP ^ | November 27, 2006

[Charles Henrickson]

NEW YORK (AP) -- Mark McGwire, Tony Gwynn and Cal Ripken Jr. headline the first-time candidates on the 2007 baseball writers' Hall of Fame ballot released Monday, sure to spark debate on Big Mac's place in history as the steroid era comes under renewed scrutiny.

Jose Canseco, whose book last year led to a congressional hearing on steroid use in baseball, also is on the ballot for the first time. Canseco said he used steroids along with McGwire when they were teammates.

McGwire denied using illegal performance-enhancing substances, but when he appeared before a congressional committee, he evaded questions. "I'm not here to talk about the past," was his repeated response.

McGwire finished his career with 583 home runs, seventh in baseball history while Canseco, a former MVP, is 30th at 462. Dave Kingman, 34th with 442, has the most home runs for a player who has been on the Hall of Fame ballot and was not elected.

Gwynn, an eight-time batting champion with San Diego, and Ripken, a two-time MVP with Baltimore, are considered likely to gain election on the first ballot. Ripken played in 2,632 consecutive games, breaking Lou Gehrig's record.

Bret Saberhagen, a two-time Cy Young Award winner, and former MVP Ken Caminiti also are among 17 players on the ballot for the first time along with Harold Baines, Dante Bichette, Bobby Bonilla, Scott Brosius, Jay Buhner, Eric Davis, Tony Fernandez, Wally Joyner, Paul O'Neill, Devon White and Bobby Witt.

Jim Rice, who was 53 votes short of election last year, heads the 15 holdovers. Rich Gossage finished one vote behind Rice.

Reporters who have been in the BBWAA for 10 or more consecutive years are eligible to vote, and the totals will be announced Jan. 9.

The complete ballot:

Harold Baines, Albert Belle, Dante Bichette, Bert Blyleven, Bobby Bonilla, Scott Brosius, Jay Buhner, Ken Caminiti, Jose Canseco, Dave Concepcion, Eric Davis, Andre Dawson, Tony Fernandez, Steve Garvey, Rich "Goose" Gossage, Tony Gwynn, Orel Hershiser, Tommy John, Wally Joyner, Don Mattingly, Mark McGwire, Jack Morris, Dale Murphy, Paul O'Neill, Dave Parker, Jim Rice, Cal Ripken Jr., Bret Saberhagen, Lee Smith, Alan Trammell, Devon White, Bobby Witt.

[Charles Henrickson]

Ozzie Smith was voted in on his first ballot. Meanwhile, Concepcion and Trammell likely will never make it. But really, I don't think there was a night-and-day difference among them, not THAT much. True, Smith was tops in defensive range, and his high number of stolen bases are a big plus. But he had no power whatsoever and did not hit for a high average. Don't get me wrong, I would still put Smith in my top 10 all-time at short, but not way up at the top.

I would judge the overhyped Smith to be roughly equal to the underrated HOFer Luis Aparicio:

Luis Aparicio (1956-73): 2599 G, 1335 R, 83 HR, 791 RBI, .262 AVG, .653 OPS, 506 SB/79 SB%

Ozzie Smith (1978-96): 2573 G, 1257 R, 28 HR, 793 RBI, .262 AVG, .666 OPS, 580 SB/80 SB%

Everybody knows Ozzie, but nobody remembers Little Looie. Yet their numbers were VIRTUALLY IDENTICAL and they were EXACTLY THE SAME TYPE OF PLAYER--very fast, excellent defensive shortstops, great basestealers. I guess Looie should have done a few backflips when he came out on the field.

An interesting case will be when Omar Vizquel becomes eligible. Same type of player, very comparable to Aparicio and Smith.

[Mr. Mojo]

Murphy doesn't have better all around numbers than any of those HoF's you mentioned, nor are his numbers good enough even in one category to merit HoF consideration. To make the Hall as an outfield you better either have over 500 Hrs, over 3000 hits, over 1500 RBis, or a lifetime BA of well over .300. Murphy has none of the above.

Joe DiMaggio

Joe D had 1537 RBIs, a .325 lifetime BA, and more jewelry than Liberace.

Hank Greenburg

Greenberg was a .313 lifetime hitter and averaged 148 RBIs/162 games for his career. ....the highest average in MLB history.

Kirby Puckett

Puckett had a .318 lifetime BA and led his team to 2 WS titles.

Ralph Kiner

Kiner's HoF credentials are questionable, there's no doubt. Too short a career. ....but his numbers are still better than Murphy's.

Hack Wilson

Wilson was a .307 hitter with almost 1500 RBIs. ....and still has the single season RBI record, of course.

Tony Gwynn

3141 Hits, .338 BA. ......an automatic.

[Charles Henrickson]

Honus Wagner was one of the greatest players in history. The pre-Ruth era is overlooked by modern fans, but there were many great players in that era. Wagner, Walter Johnson and Christy Mathewson are my favorites from that era.

I agree, I am *fascinated* by baseball history. Wagner is my all-time shortsop, the Big Train and Matty make my all-time pitching staff, Johnson being the greatest pitcher of all time.

Two others from those days who make it as back-ups on my all-time team, not far off the starting lineup: OF Tris Speaker and 2b Eddie Collins.

I really look forward to reading "The Glory of Their Times."

Good book. I read it probably 30 years ago. Another good one: "Only the Ball Was White," about the Negro Leagues.

[TheBigB]

Alan Trammell would be on the cusp, but a .285 average, 185 homers, one ring, four Gold Gloves, one World Series MVP...not quite enough.

[Charles Henrickson]

Consider that's as a SHORTSTOP, though. The offensive standards for SS and C are much lower than for OF and 1b. But I agree, on the cusp.

[TheBigB]

I agree that overall comparisons are a stretch, but the raw numbers (more HRs than Joe D., etc.) are factual.

But consider another way of looking at it...let's say for the decade. Murph was one of the most dominant players of the 80s, IMHO. He hit 308 HRs (most in the majors) for those ten years. (and even with his number tailing off at the end of the decade, an average of 30 a year is pretty darn good.)

Compare that to, say, the dominant players of the 1950s (a golden baseball era)...here's a partial list of players who hit FEWER HRs than Murph over -that- ten-year period: Eddie Matthews, Mickey Mantle, Stan Musial, Yogi Berra, Willie Mays, Ted Williams, and Roy Campanella.

Furthermmore, I think the "boy scout" stuff -should- count. If MLB is so concerned about their image nowadays, then why not honor someone who was widely viewed as one of the most upstanding and honorable people to play the game?

[Mr. Mojo]

but the raw numbers (more HRs than Joe D., etc.) are factual.

Considering it's in only one catergory, and even in that one catergory Murph came up short of the standard 500 that usually gets one in, it's a meaningless stat. Dale has far more HRs than Ty Cobb too, perhaps the best player in history. ...and more than Rod Carew, Gwynn, Boggs, etc. These guys obviously weren't HR hitters -- it was their batting average and number of hits that got them in the HoF, and in Cobb's case just overall brillliance.

Murphy's forte was power, but he just doesn't have the numbers (either 500 HRs or 1500 RBis) to make the HoF.

Comparing Murphy to Joe D is laughable. Dimaggio hit 361 HRs desipte playing in a ballpark where the outfield dimensions make Fulton County Stadium look like a Little League park by comparison, and his lifetime batting average was over 60 pts higher than Murph's).

Yeah, he was undoubtedly one of the better players for a stretch of a few years, but not good enough. ....and because of that he'll most likely never get in.

[Mr. Mojo]

Dimaggio hit 361 HRs desipte playing in a ballpark where the outfield dimensions make Fulton County Stadium look like a Little League park by comparison, and his lifetime batting average was over 60 pts higher than Murph's

AND he missed 3 years of his absolute prime for WW2.

[TheBigB]

Comparing Murphy to Joe D is laughable.

To quote a gentleman named Dalton (from Road House)..."Opinions vary."

"I can't imagine Joe DiMaggio was a better all-around player than Dale Murphy." -- Nolan Ryan

[Mr. Mojo]

Batting average: Joe D .325, Murphy .265 (no contest)

HRs per 162 games: Joe D 34, Murphy 30

RBIs per 162 games: Joe D 143, Muphy 94 (an embarrassing discrepancy)

RBIs total: Joe D 1537, Murphy 1266

Hits per 162 games: Joe D 207, Murphy 157 (another embarrassing discrepancy)

Doubles per 162 games: Joe D 36, Murphy 26

Triples: Joe D 131, Murphy 39 (ouch)

Strikouts per 162 games: Joe D: 34, Murphy 130 (double ouch)

On base %: Joe D .398, Murphy .346

Slugging %: Joe D .579, Murphy .469

.....the embarrassing comparison goes on, and on, and on....

[TheBigB]

I'll let you tell Nolan, when you see him. :-)

I think at their respective peaks, Murph was a comparable all-around player. Certainly his career numbers don't match up, I know.

[Mr. Mojo]

Nope, not even at their peaks. Check out Joe Ds three best years (although he had a few more years with similar numbers):

1937: .346 BA, .673 SLG%, 46 HRs, 167 RBIs, 37 strikeouts.
1939: .381 BA, .671 SLG%, 30 HRs, 126 RBIs, 20 strikeouts
1940: .352 BA, .626 SLG%, 31 HRs, 133 RBIs, 30 strikeouts

Give me Murphy's three best years and we'll stack 'em up.

(And also remember that teams played 8 fewer games per season in Joe D's era).

As far as outfield prowess is concerned, Murphy was good, but Joe D was among the top five to ever play the game.

[TheBigB]

I'll bow to Joe D. Murph's number can't compare to those.

I still think he's a HoFer, though. At least, he should get more support than he does.

[Mr. Mojo]

Dale Murphy -- a very good player and an even better guy. Wish MLB (and sports in general) had more like him.

Should character count in HoF voting? It's a good question. Ty Cobb wasn't exactly a Boy Scout (to say the least), but few would argue that he shouldn't be a HoFer because of it. Then again he never gambled on the game (like HoFers Rose and Shoeless Joe did), which does make a difference.

[Charles Henrickson]

McGwire acknowledged that he took Androstenedione while he was still active. Andro is not a steroid and was available in "health food" stores at the time.

That part is understood and is not a problem. The question is what McGwire may have ALSO taken that he DIDN'T acknowledge. There ae plenty of yellow flags, if not red ones.

And like I say, I followed McGwire's St. Louis years very closely, and I cheered for him at the time. I WANT to believe, but even I have my doubts.

If there were no doubts about what he took, then I would say McGwire is absolutely a first-ballot HOFer. Definitely one of the top ten 1b of all-time, based on his numbers (along with Gehrig, Foxx, Greenberg, Sisler, McCovey, Murray).

[Charles Henrickson]

I think Harmon Killebrew played more 1b than 3b, so I'd put him in the top ten at that position as well.

Ernie Banks ended up playing a little more 1b than SS, but he made his mark at short, so I'll consider him among the top SS.

Likewise, Rod Carew and Jackie Robinson played a lot of 1b but rate higher at 2b, a position requiring less offense.

[TravisBickle]

Fair or not, I think some players make it in with very good numbers, but also because they seem to take on the team identity. Ripken was the Orioles, Gwynn was the Padres. And Kirby Puckett was easily the most popular Twin for a long, long time. Numbers are certainly important, but does anyone think that Ozzie Smith should have been a first ballot, Hall of Famer with his numbers? But since he was the Cardinal icon for so many years, he was a shoo-in.

I think one of the problems Ron Santo has is that he was in the shadow of Billy Williams and Ernie Banks, and to a lesser extent, Fergie Jenkins. Dave Parker was in Stargell's shadow, Dawson was in Gary Carter's shadow, then Ryne Sandberg's. As for Murphy, I would have thought that he owned Atlanta, and would have been an early inductee. I guess I'm missing something there.

[RayChuang88]

I personally think that besides Cal Ripken and Tony Gwynn (both of which are "locks" to get voted to the Hall of Fame this year), they should vote Rich "Goose" Gossage into the Hall of Fame, too. Gossage in his heyday was one of the most intimidating and dominating closers on the pitching mound, and he should be honored for that feat.

[grey_whiskers]

When you combine all aspects of the game, there's little doubt about that. But Ozzie Smith was the best defensive shortstop.

Mark Belanger.

Ozzie played on turf and could count on true hops every time.

(Of course, Belanger got to play next to Brooks Robinson...)

Cheers!

[JCEccles]

If they had a Hall of Fame for great two-or-three-year stretches, Dale Murphy would be in it. But the bulk of his career did not measure up, not for an outfielder.

Dale Murphy got all his numbers honestly.

In honor of his unflinching integrity, he should be elected ahead of the nominees who stoked up on steroids and other chemical enhancers.