immigration

It is all about supply and demand. 20 million illegals need food, clothing, cars, housing, medical facilities, jails, prisons, courts and polices and gang units, schools and teachers, social services, etc. The businesses that produce these things need to produce more for the illegals and jobs are created for them. Americans are not using more products and need illegals to fill jobs and do not need to produce for Americans. Beside creating jobs for themselves they are taking jobs from American citizens, especially Black Americans. Illegals benefit themselves and corporations by making them richer. Corporations benefit themselves and government by paying more taxes. Corporate America runs the government. The economy is good for corporations and not for Americans who are struggling. This result in great for corporations and government and the Americans people get screwed by lowering of their wages and their taxes goes to finance illegals needs and presence in this country. Illegals being low wage earners pay very little in taxes and most get the earn income tax break or pay no taxes. No illegals will not be sent back home because of anchor babies and if they are not babies and 16 years old they purposely have babies to secure their stay in America. This law has to be changed or no form of immigration reform will work. If not changed the borders will mean nothing. Pence, want to crate a “Ellis Island” in a joke. He say if the illegals leave the country, fill out papers and come back home in America it is not amnesty. Duh. Americans are not that stupid. Let them go home apply and wait their turn like everyone else. Send them home one by one with their babies (babies that were born to illegals at a cost to hospitals and American citizens) over a period of time. Maybe years. That is how they came and the economy they created will gradually disappear within society. American citizens do not want illegals immigration but “legal” immigration. God bless Hazelton, Pa and Sheriff Arpaio of Phoenix, AZ and all the others that hear the cry of the American people.

"We are not going to "negotiate" like how Chamberlain "negotiated" with Hitler, and ended up handing the whole of Europe to Hitler resulting ina war that killed over 50 million. "

Chamberlain basically waved the white flag to Hitler by signing a very bad deal.
That was before the war in Europe, btw.
The US Senate is waving a white flag to Mexico passing a very bad bill. Bad agreements/bills leave countries paying the price for decades. Justbthink the 1986 immigration bill. We are still paying a heavy price for that stupidity.

"So it's not a war, but it is a war? So anytime anyone negotiates, it is tantamount to Chamberlain?"

Still not a war.
Its just a vote in congress over immigration.
But there is analogy to what comes when you sign a bad agreement for the sake of getting an agreement at all costs.
No agreement is far, far, far, far better than a bad agreement.
That is the analogy with Chamberlain.
Get it?

"Oops, I forgot. The questions dealing with that are to be eliminated. Only the questions that pertain to strong borders and enforcement are to be kept in. I keep forgetting the ground rules for intellectual honesty..."

Hah Hah.
How can a guy advocating mass breaking of our current immigration laws and mass amnesty for illegals while still saying it's not amnesty, have ANY intellectual honesty?

Chamberlain basically waved the white flag to Hitler by signing a very bad deal. That was before the war in Europe, btw.

Wasn't it you accusing me of straw men?

Still not a war. Its just a vote in congress over immigration. But there is analogy to what comes when you sign a bad agreement for the sake of getting an agreement at all costs. No agreement is far, far, far, far better than a bad agreement. That is the analogy with Chamberlain. Get it?

Yes, finally. Thanks to your brilliant "It's not a war", but's it's just like a war" straw men, the light came on. Similar to "Polls are worthless" and "Look at all these polls showing what I want". Let me guess that Critical Thinking was not your best class in school?

How can a guy advocating mass breaking of our current immigration laws and mass amnesty for illegals while still saying it's not amnesty, have ANY intellectual honesty?

I think you are missing the meaning of intellectual honesty by a wide margin. If it makes you feel good all over to call it amnesty, by all means do so. Please show me where I advocated breaking of our current laws. Making false charges is another part of intellectual dishonesty. It means your argument has failed on so many levels your only tools left are distortions and fairy tales. Bad sign.

"Wasn't it you accusing me of straw men? "

No straw men in that.
You are fishing again.

"Yes, finally. Thanks to your brilliant "It's not a war", but's it's just like a war" straw men, the light came on."

Ha Hah!
Again, its not a war.
Its about signing a bad deal because you want to sign a deal so bad, and at all costs.
No deal is better than a bad deal that toy pay for heavily in the future.Explaining things to dunderhead is just so hard.
Sigh.

"You mean America loses, don't you? "

Earth to LaRaza agent: Mexico and America are not the same country.
Mexicans losing on the immigration bill here, can only be good for America.

"America wins with a comprehensive bill"

Like they did with the "comprehensive immigration bill" in 1986?
Not on your life!

" Why don't we put bounties on illegals, then we'd get all the help we need. /S"

Hah Hah Hah!

"Yes, finally. Thanks to your brilliant "It's not a war", but's it's just like a war" straw men"

I will try again.
Veeery slooowly.
Its not about wars. Its about signing bad agreements, when you are desperate to sign an agreement at all costs, bad or not.

"Similar to "Polls are worthless and "Look at all these polls showing what I want"."

Again, you have failed to show me where I said polls are "worthless"
On the other hand I have already posted here exactly what I said.
Polls have uses, but what constituents tell our Republican congressmen matter even more more.
You see, they are the ones that vote to put our congressmen in power in he first place, and they are the ones that will vote come November....for our Republican congressmen. I don't care what the RATS think or want.
And the voting in November is what matters most of all.

It's good, better best.
I know its hard for your pint sized brain to understand, but please do try will ya?

No straw men in that. You are fishing again.

Ah, so because of Chamberlain's failure to recognize Hitler's ambitions, that should be our cue that the Republican House should not negotiate with the Republican Senate? Well, I see what you mean. Pretty clear comparisons, I'd say.

No deal is better than a bad deal that toy pay for heavily in the future.Explaining things to dunderhead is just so hard. Sigh.

Toy pay for in the future? Dunderhead? Uh, ok. Point taken.

Earth to LaRaza agent: Mexico and America are not the same country. Mexicans losing on the immigration bill here, can only be good for America.

Well, now if only the majority of these dumb Americans could only understand that. /S

Like they did with the "comprehensive immigration bill" in 1986? Not on your life!

Since we don't know (other than you) what would come out of a conference, I'm not sure of the comparison. Did the 1986 bill have strong border security? More effective enforcement? So your point is once something has failed, we should never try and fix it.

"Well, now if only the majority of these dumb Americans could only understand that"

Majority of Republicans( who are the majority party), have overwhilemimngly let their congressmen know they are totally against amnesty.
And they will vote in November.
That's what counts.

"Since we don't know (other than you) what would come out of a conference, I'm not sure of the comparison"

We are in our present pickle because we passed a stupid amnesty bill in 1986. Some thing that led to massive production of fake id's and a huge upsurge in illegals immigration.
The Senate Shamnesty bill is if anything even worse than that one.

"Did the 1986 bill have strong border security?"

The same Senate voted just a few days ago to stop funding for a wall.
Its here on FR somewhere.
The Senate is clearly not serious about securing our borders.

Again, you have failed to show me where I said polls are "worthless"

You spent two posts shooting down polls, and the third reposting yours. Apparently only the polls which show what you want are ok, the rest (which say something you are afraid of reading) are all made up of Democrats, so they are worthless.

You see, they are the ones that vote to put our congressmen in power in he first place, and they are the ones that will vote come November....for our Republican congressmen. I don't care what the RATS think or want.

Right, and who in America wants Congress to sit down and work on at least one thing together? No One. But if the Republicans are in such control, where's the bill that America wants? Can't come up with it? Well, I'm sure America will understand that it's just those Democrats.../S.

I know its hard for your pint sized brain to understand, but please do try will ya?

I'll try, but when dealing with folks with such high moral certitude, I'ts difficult for us little people, you know? So your point seems to be, read the polls unless they say something to the contrary, remember Neville Chamberlain, and We're in charge so screw the world. You were saying what about pint sized?

"Ah, so because of Chamberlain's failure to recognize Hitler's ambitions, that should be our cue that the Republican House should not negotiate with the Republican Senate? "

Because Chamberlain was desperate to sign an agreement at all costs, so he signed a bad one, with devastating consequences for everyone later.
We should not sign a bad Senate Bill just because we "need" to get an immigration bill at all costs (there was a time when an attempt was made to panic everyone into getting bill signed by November's elections at all costs. Luckily the Republican House members weren't buying that crap).
We should have a new immigration bill because its the right immigration bill for Americans.
Otherwise, no new immigration bill.

"I think you are missing the meaning of intellectual honesty by a wide margin."
Hah Hah!

Great comeback. But my pint sized brain missed the point. Oh yes, something about intellectual honesty....

Umm.. is is amnesty. No amount of spin changes the facts.

You hang on to that little security blanket. Makes ya feel good all over now, don't it...

The same Senate voted just a few days ago to stop funding for a wall. Its here on FR somewhere. The Senate is clearly not serious about securing our borders.

Yes, the Republican sponsored amendment required the funding be taken away from other parts of border enforcement. Funny, how you missed that part, but my pint sized brain has trouble seeing all the nuances of debate.

"You spent two posts shooting down polls, and the third reposting yours."

Again, this is what I posted:

I am rejecting nothing
I am merely pointing out that :

# 1. Our Republican congressmen have been swamped with phone calls, letters and town hall meetings which are OVERWHELIMNGLY AGAINST ANY KIND OF AMNESTY FOR ILLEGALS.
That that by far trumps any polls, because these are the peope that actually VOTE for our Republican candidates.
I don't really care what RATS voters want. They don't vote for us.

# 2. Practically every poll out there has up to 12% more RATS in the samples than Republicans, which doesn't make any sense, given that Republicans have consistently gotten more votes in every House elections since 1994, including the most recent in 2002 and 2004 where we got at least 51% of the vote, and 3 million more votes than RATS in the 2004 presidential elections.
So if you have samples with more RATS, that's not the view of Republican voters, which are the only people we care about.
And #3. The only poll that counts is the poll in November, and if our Republican congressmen continue do what their constituents want and kill the Senate Shamnesty Bill ( which they are already doing very nicely), we will win again in November."

Polls have uses, but they are very flawed and baised aginst Republicans.
And pollsare trumped by what constituents tell their congressmen, and by the real elections.

We should not sign a bad Senate Bill just because we "need" to get an immigration bill at all costs (there was a time when an attempt was made to panic everyone into getting bill signed by November's elections at all costs. Luckily the Republican House members weren't buying that crap).

Uh the issue is not "signing" a bad Senate bill. The issue is whether to attempt a conference. But again, that pint sized brain of mine is still trying to grasp the benefits of status quo with no border controls and no new enforcement.

We should have a new immigration bill because its the right immigration bill for Americans.

Yes, and you and a handful of others know exactly what's right for America. Screw the polls, we really don't care what Americans think about it (unless they agree with us). /S

"Yes, the Republican sponsored amendment required the funding be taken away from other parts of border enforcement"

My point remains.

This is what you said:

"Did the 1986 bill have strong border security?"

And this what I replied.:

"The same Senate voted just a few days ago to stop funding for a wall. "

Bottom line: Funding was stopped for a wall by The Senate.
And your crack "Did the 1986 bill have strong border security?" will bring the same answer, the Senate is not including a strong border security this time either.
It's 1986 redux.

"Uh the issue is not "signing" a bad Senate bill. The issue is whether to attempt a conference"

Everything in it's time.
Hearings first, then deep studying of all the traps for American taxpayers in the Senate Bill, then conference if we feel the Senate people are ready to dump their obnoxious Bill for the House version.
If the Senate won't listen to reason, there will be no bill.
And states counties, cities which are under massive onslaught from illegals are simply going to continue what they have been doing, that is, bring in tough anti-ilegal immigrant laws themselves, and crack down hard on the suckers.
That is fine by me.
Meanwhile, as the illegals invasion continues, that issue is going to shoot to the top as one of the top issues of the 2008 presidential elections, and the illegals are still going to lose, Senate or no Senate. Americans are fed up.

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