immigration

[grannylady]

Illegals create a society and jobs in America for themselves.

It is all about supply and demand. 20 million illegals need food, clothing, cars, housing, medical facilities, jails, prisons, courts and polices and gang units, schools and teachers, social services, etc. The businesses that produce these things need to produce more for the illegals and jobs are created for them. Americans are not using more products and need illegals to fill jobs and do not need to produce for Americans. Beside creating jobs for themselves they are taking jobs from American citizens, especially Black Americans. Illegals benefit themselves and corporations by making them richer. Corporations benefit themselves and government by paying more taxes. Corporate America runs the government. The economy is good for corporations and not for Americans who are struggling. This result in great for corporations and government and the Americans people get screwed by lowering of their wages and their taxes goes to finance illegals needs and presence in this country. Illegals being low wage earners pay very little in taxes and most get the earn income tax break or pay no taxes. No illegals will not be sent back home because of anchor babies and if they are not babies and 16 years old they purposely have babies to secure their stay in America. This law has to be changed or no form of immigration reform will work. If not changed the borders will mean nothing. Pence, want to crate a “Ellis Island” in a joke. He say if the illegals leave the country, fill out papers and come back home in America it is not amnesty. Duh. Americans are not that stupid. Let them go home apply and wait their turn like everyone else. Send them home one by one with their babies (babies that were born to illegals at a cost to hospitals and American citizens) over a period of time. Maybe years. That is how they came and the economy they created will gradually disappear within society. American citizens do not want illegals immigration but “legal” immigration. God bless Hazelton, Pa and Sheriff Arpaio of Phoenix, AZ and all the others that hear the cry of the American people.

[MACVSOG68]

I sure do, I talk with people all over this country on a daily basis. Without exception they are completely at odds with your stance.

Well then, you might tell your friends on these threads to quit posting polls that they think support the House version, because every single poll released over the past 2 and a half months by every organization including those most Freepers agree with say just the opposite.

[Leatherneck_MT]

I've read the polls and only wishful thinking would come up with that conclusion.

[Jameison]

"So as I understand it, anything that you disagree with is a straw man argument. "

Nope.
It is when you keep repeating stuff that is not relevant.

"So what is your estimate of what it will take to find and deport 20 million assimilated illegals? "

It's going to cost us quite a bit less than than the hundreds of billions we have spent in Iraq to build a super wall, fitted with the latest hi-tech anti-infiltration gadgetry, with watch towers and enough border patrols to make it work.
Plus employ enough ICE agents to apprehend and deport illegals from this country.
If we can spend hundreds of billions on a foreign country, we sure can spend that to secure our own borders. After all, we are the mines paying huge taxes every year.

"You don't accept my straw man argument that it will take away from other more important law enforcement duties, so how many and where do they come from. More important, how will you fund it?"

Read the above.
What we need is the political will.

[Jameison]

"If you can't debate rationally sans the insults when your point wilts like a late summer rose,"

Hah Hah!
Let me know when you have anything that makes sense to say will you?
I repeat, the law is the law.
Being a Mexican doesn't give you a free pass on our laws.
Get that into ya thick head.


" stick it where the sun don't shine!"


Double back at ya.

[Jameison]

"Well then, you might tell your friends on these threads to quit posting polls that they think support the House version, because every single poll released over the past 2 and a half months by every organization including those most Freepers agree with say just the opposite"

#1. There are no polls most Freepers agree with.
Freepers are known for not having much confidence in MSM polls.

# 2. Why limit it to 2 and half months?

# 3. Practically all our Republican congressmen have had their constituents OVERWHLMINGLY come out against any kind of amnesty for illegals, in the phone calls, letters , faxes they have recieved. That is democracy at work right there
That trumps MSM polls which are invariable have far more RATS than Republicans.
I just put in a fisking from Powetline on some biased poll from the AP that vastly oversampled RATS

# 4. Following on from # 3, the only polls that matter will be the one in November, and since our congressmen want their constituents to vote for them , they are not going to let the Senate Bill pass

[MACVSOG68]

//I've read the polls and only wishful thinking would come up with that conclusion.//

Well, here are a few. I do have several more if you're interested. Which polls are you referring to?


FOX 7/13/06
37% to 32% feel Democrats would do better job on immigration
37% to 31% feel Republicans would do better job on border security
Failure to pass a bill would be Bush and Republican congressional fault 43%. Democrats in congress 21%
41% to 36% Immigrants give to the country rather than take away
51% say immigrants should decrease; 41% no change or increase
34% feel borders should be secured first; 35% feel deal with those here first; 28% both equally

Tarrance Group Survey 6/12-13/06
75% of likely voters wanted something similar to the Senate version
49% said it was not amnesty
95% said it was important to pass a bill this year

Gallup 6/8-25/06
59% said immigration should remain at current levels or increase
67% said immigration was a good thing; 28% said bad
66% said illegals cost too much; 29% pay fair share
74% say illegal immigrants take jobs most Americans don't want
66% say illegals should remain if they meet certain requirements; 16% want to deport all

LA Times/Bloomberg 6/24-27/06
34% - 23% Democrats can do better on immigration
87% say immigration is most important or one of most important issues
51% say illegals take jobs no American wants
46% support guest worker program; 22% oppose
67% want illegals to have a path to citizenship
44% want a felony for being in US illegally
58% want a tougher enforcement combined with a guest worker program
22% want only tougher enforcement
60% will be disappointed if no bill is passed this year

NBC/Wall Street Journal 6/9-12/06
50% want increased border security
40% want a guest worker program; 34% do not
More today believe Democrats will do better on immigration than 11/05
50% feel immigration helps; 50% feels it hurts. 12/05 hurts was 53%, helps was 37%
50% favor the Senate Bill; 33% favor the House Bill

CBS News Poll 6/10-11/06
33% approve of President Bush on immigration; 56% disapprove

API/Ipsos 5/15-17/06
52% believe immigration is a good influence on US; 46% a bad influence

Fox News Poll 5/16-18/06
57% feel illegal immigration is very serious problem, 29% somewhat serious
63% favor letting those with jobs apply for legal, temporary worker status
55% favor sending as many back as possible

CBS News Poll 5/16-17/06
77% favor Senate approach to citizenship
61% favor a guest worker program

CNN Poll 5/16-17/06
50% disapprove of Bush handling of immigration; 36% approve
79% favor the Senate approach to citizenship
66% favor increasing penalties for employers who hire illegals

ABC News/Washington Post Poll 5/11/15/06
77% feel US not doing enough to prevent illegal immigration

Newsweek Poll 5/11-12/06
61% disapprove of Bush handling of immigration

CBS News/NY Times Poll 5/4-8/06
61% say legal immigration should be at current levels or increased; 34% say decreased
89% say illegal immigration is a very serious or somewhat serious problem
53% feel illegal immigrants take jobs no one wants; 36% feel they take jobs away
61% feel illegals should be given chance to keep jobs; 35% feel they should be deported
66% oppose a 700 mile fence; 29% favor
70% feel illegals weaken the economy

[MACVSOG68]

#1. There are no polls most Freepers agree with. Freepers are known for not having much confidence in MSM polls.

Are you kidding? When they showed President Bush with an 80% approval rating, they were all over them. But I do know that you are a careful poll watcher youself.

# 2. Why limit it to 2 and half months?

Oh, we don't. But neither should we exclude them as you did. In fact I have similar polls all the way back to December. Please let me know if you would like to see them. I used the last 2 and a half months, as I told you before because it was after the Senate debate and the marches and demonstrations.

# 3. Practically all our Republican congressmen have had their constituents OVERWHLMINGLY come out against any kind of amnesty for illegals, in the phone calls, letters , faxes they have recieved. That is democracy at work right there

Don't doubt it. Never did. And in the end they will get exactly what they want...nothing.

That trumps MSM polls which are invariable have far more RATS than Republicans.

They are weighted when looking at political questions, but I'm sure you knew that.

# 4. Following on from # 3, the only polls that matter will be the one in November, and since our congressmen want their constituents to vote for them , they are not going to let the Senate Bill pass

I can't argue that. And America will get what the Republicans want which is nothing. And we will go on with the open borders until equilibrium which is probably 10 to 15 million more. Oops, I forgot about Central America. Oh well.

[Jameison]

"Are you kidding? When they showed President Bush with an 80% approval rating, they were all over them. But I do know that you are a careful poll watcher youself."

This is what I said:

There are no polls most Freepers agree with. Freepers are known for not having much confidence in MSM polls..

That still holds.
Go back to the polls threads for the past 3 years, and you'll see what I mean.


"I used the last 2 and a half months, as I told you before because it was after the Senate debate and the marches and demonstrations"

House Bill was in December


"And in the end they will get exactly what they want...nothing."

If by "nothing" you mean we don't get to give amnesty to 12 million illegals, and still enforce current immigration laws, then "nothing" is just fine.


"They are weighted when looking at political questions, but I'm sure you knew that."

MSM polls use more RATS political questions or not.
Plus immigration is a political issue.
There is a very wide gap between what liberals want and what conservatives want.

[MACVSOG68]

House Bill was in December

I'm perfectly willing to show you polls from January including the one you used from Time Magazine to try and support your point while overlooking what it really said. But you seriously think that your polls from a business association mean more than every poll in the past 2 and a half months? You threw out the polls first. Now you reject the polls because they don't support you.

If by "nothing" you mean we don't get to give amnesty to 12 million illegals, and still enforce current immigration laws, then "nothing" is just fine.

I didn't see any amnesty in either of the bills, but in any case, if you think the Senate bill gives a path to citizenship for 12 million (or more likely 20 million), you haven't read it.

MSM polls use more RATS political questions or not. Plus immigration is a political issue. There is a very wide gap between what liberals want and what conservatives want.

Still trying to rationalize using polls but not using polls? Even if they didn't weight them, which they do, 73% in some polls would still not fit into your conspiracy theory...unless all the polling organizations have gotten together including Fox's, and asked what answers Teddy Kennedy wanted. Tinfoil hat time.

MSM polls use more RATS political questions or not.

You do understand the concept of random sampling? Again, that's the purpose of weighting, to account for differences in party count.

[Jameison]

"I'm perfectly willing to show you polls from January including the one you used from Time Magazine to try and support your point while overlooking what it really said. But you seriously think that your polls from a business association mean more than every poll in the past 2 and a half months? You threw out the polls first. Now you reject the polls because they don't support you."

I have already put in plenty of polls from January strongly oppossing open borders, strongly for penalising employers of illegals, and strongly against amnesty for illegal invaders.
I am rejecting nothing
I am merely pointing out that :

# 1. Our Republican congressmen have been swamped with phone calls, letters and town hall meetings wich are OVERWHELIMNGLY AGAINST ANY KIND OF AMNESTY FOR ILLEGALS.
That that by far trumps any polls, because these are the peope that actually VOTE for our Republican candidates.
I don't really care what RATS voters want. They don't vote for us.

# 2. Practically every poll out there has up to 12% more RATS in the samples than Republicans, which doesn't make any sense, given that Republicans have consistently gotten more votes in every House elections since 1994, including the most recent in 2002 and 2004 where we got at least 51% of the voote, and 3 million more votes than RATS in the 2004 presidential elections.
So if you have samples with more RATS, that's not the view of Republican voters, which are the only people we care about.
And #3. The only poll that counts is the poll in November, and if our Republican congressmen continue do what their constintuents want and kill the Senate Shamnesty Bill ( which they are already doing very nicely), we will win again in November.


"I didn't see any amnesty in either of the bills, but in any case, if you think the Senate bill gives a path to citizenship for 12 million (or more likely 20 million), you haven't read it. "

You wouldn't would you?
The Senate Bill is chock full of goodies( at American tax payers expense) for Mexicans, and amnesty for breaking plenty of Americans laws, including identity fraud, and social security fraud, not to mention immigration laws.

Thomas Sowell:
"Another insult to our intelligence is that amnesty is not amnesty if you call it something else. The fact that illegals will have to fulfill certain requirements to become American citizens is supposed to mean that this is not amnesty.

But let's do what the spinmeisters hope we will never do -- stop and think. Amnesty is overlooking ("forgetting," as in amnesia) the violation of the law committed by those who have crossed our borders illegally.

The fact that there are requirements for getting American citizenship is a separate issue entirely. Illegal aliens who do not choose to seek American citizenship are under no more jeopardy than before. They have de facto amnesty.

Yet another insult to our intelligence is saying that, since we cannot find and deport 12 million people, the only choice left is to find some way to make them legal.

There is probably no category of law-breakers -- from counterfeiters to burglars or from jay-walkers to murderers -- who can all be found and arrested. But no one suggests that we must therefore make what they have done legal.

Such an argument would suggest that there is nothing in between 100 percent effective law enforcement and zero percent effective law enforcement. "

[Jameison]

"Still trying to rationalize using polls but not using polls? "


Nope.
Still looking at the RATS/Republican split of MSM pols.

"Even if they didn't weight them, which they do"

They don't

I just posted two fiskings of MSM polls that had 12% more RATS than Republicans

"73% in some polls would still not fit into your conspiracy theory.."

No conspiracy theories.
We just take the figures they gave us.
Nothing more nothing less.

"unless all the polling organizations have gotten together including Fox's, and asked what answers Teddy Kennedy wanted. Tinfoil hat time."

Hah Hah!

From Sweeetnes-light:

"The AP article goes on to reiterate in several variations how impossible it will be for Republicans to hold onto their majority in Congress.

But, as regular readers of this site will recall, the French company Ipsos always over-samples Democrats.

And this case is no different:

That’s a 12% advantage to the Democrats.

So a group of people comprised of 12% more Democrats than Republicans was asked who should run Congress. And they answered Democrats by a 11% advantage.

That actually sounds like a 1% win for the GOP.

And how does:

Democrats were favored 51 percent to 40 percent…

Translate to:

Americans by an almost 3-to-1 margin… desire to see Democrats wrest control after a dozen years of Republican rule.

As we have noted before, the Associated Press always polls more Democrats than Republicans at about a 12% clip. The AP then uses their bogus results to drive the news.

Just check out their the Ipsos News Center’s archives back to the eve of the November elections last year:"

http://www.sweetness-light.com/archive/ap-screws-another-poll-to-say-gop-will-lose-congress

How is YOUR tinfoil hat going LaRaza sucker? Heh Heh!

[Jameison]

"You do understand the concept of random sampling?"

I do.
I did statistics.
Do you?

" Again, that's the purpose of weighting, to account for differences in party count."

They normally don't.
Read my post # 111 above.
The few exceptions I have seen actually adjust the numbers to further REDUCE Republican voters from the already ridiculously low, out of all reality figures.
This is why we have kept winning for the past 6 years despite constant MSM "polls" predicting Republican doom and disaster in 2002 and 2004. That poll in my post # 111 confidently predicts we are going to lose in November, just like they predicted in 2002 and 2004.
Let's see who wins in November shall we? :) .

[Jameison]

"Which polls are you referring to? "

These?



Immigration Bills: House vs. Senate

A new Zogby poll of likely voters, using neutral language, finds that Americans prefer the House of Representatives’ enforcement-only bill by 2-1 over Senate proposals to legalize illegal immigrants and greatly increase legal immigration. The poll was conducted for the Center for Immigration Studies.

Click here for detailed analysis of the poll conducted April 17-24, 2006.

On immigration generally, Americans want less, not more, immigration. Only twenty-six percent said immigrants were assimilating fine and that immigration should continue at current levels, compared to sixty-seven percent who said immigration should be reduced so we can assimilate those already here.

While the Senate is considering various bills that would increase legal immigration from 1 million to 2 million a year, two percent of Americans believe current immigration is too low. This was true for virtually every grouping in the survey by ethnicity, income, age, religion, region, party, or ideology thought immigration was too low.

When offered by itself, there is strong support for the House bill: sixty-nine percent said it was a good or very good idea when told it tries to make illegals go home by fortifying the border, forcing employer verification, and encouraging greater cooperation with local law enforcement while not increasing legal immigration; twenty-seven percent said it was a bad or very bad idea.

Support for the House approach was widespread, with eighty-one percent of Republicans, seventy-two percent of independents, fifty-seven percent of Democrats, and fifty-three percent of Hispanics saying it was good or very good idea.

When offered by itself, there is also some support for the Senate approach, thought not as much as for the House bill: forty-two percent said the Senate approach was a good or very good idea when told it would allow illegal immigrants to apply for legal status provided they met certain criteria, and it would significantly increase legal immigration and increase enforcement of immigration laws; fifty percent said it was a bad or very bad idea.

There were few groups in which a majority supported the Senate plan, even when presented by itself, exceptions included Hispanics sixty-two percent of whom said it was a good or very good idea and the most liberal voters (progressives) fifty-four percent of whom approved of it.

When given three choices (House approach, Senate approach, or mass deportation), the public tends to reject both the Senate plan and a policy of mass deportations in favor of the House bill; twenty-eight percent want the Senate plan, twelve percent want mass deportations; while fifty-six percent want the House approach.

But when given a choice between just the House and Senate approaches, without the choice of mass deportations, the public prefers the House approach sixty-four percent version to thirty percent.

One reason the public does not like legalizations is that they are skeptical of need for illegal-immigrant labor. An overwhelming majority of seventy-seven percent said there are plenty of Americans to fill low-wage jobs if employers pay more and treat workers better; just fifteen percent said there are not enough Americans for such jobs.

Another reason the public does not like Senate proposals to legalize illegals and double legal immigration is that seventy-three percent said they had little or no confidence in the ability of the government to screen these additional applicants to weed out terrorists and criminals.

Public also does not buy the argument we have tried and failed to enforce the law: seventy-one percent felt that past enforcement efforts have been "grossly inadequate," while only nineteen percent felt we had made a "real effort" to enforce our laws.

Prefer Lower Numbers

Sixty-seven percent of Americans approve of the U.S. government deporting illegal immigrants to the country they came from.
Opinion Research Corporation/Lou Dobbs poll, June 8-11, 2006

Sixty-seven percent of Americans would you like to see the number of illegal immigrants currently in this country decreased.
Opinion Research Corporation/Lou Dobbs poll, June 8-11, 2006

Fifty-seven percent of registered voters believe the illegal immigration situation in the United States is "very serious" and twenty-nine percent believe it is "somewhat serious."
FOX News/Opinion Dynamics Poll, May 16-18, 2006

Fifty-five percent of registered voters "favor" trying to send as many illegal immigrants back to their home countries as possible.
FOX News/Opinion Dynamics Poll, May 16-18, 2006

Seventy-seven percent of Americans think the United States is not doing enough to keep illegal immigrants from coming into this country.
ABC News/Washington Post Poll, May 11-15, 2006

Fifty-seven percent of Americans think the May 1, 2006 illegal alien solidarity protests did more to hurt their cause than help.
NBC News/Wall Street Journal Poll, April 21-24, 2006

Informed that U.S. population is projected to grow to 420 million by 2050, fifty-seven percent of respondents believed that the present U.S. population of 300 million or less would be best for the country in the long run.
Roper ASW Poll conducted for Negative Population Growth (NPG), April 14-16, 2006

Six of ten Americans, according to the poll, favor annual immigration (now one million yearly) of less than 600,000 a year. Forty-five percent of respondents favored annual immigration of less than 300,000. Overall, seventy-two percent of respondents favor an annual immigration level that is less than the current one million.
Roper ASW Poll conducted for Negative Population Growth (NPG), April 14-16, 2006

Fifty-six percent of Americans agree that a practical way to reduce to near zero the number of resident illegal aliens is legislation making penalties for illegal presence so severe that illegal immigrants would leave voluntarily rather than run the risk of being caught and penalized.
Roper ASW Poll conducted for Negative Population Growth (NPG), April 14-16, 2006

Two Americans in three (sixty-eight percent) agree that the United States should set a goal of completely halting new illegal immigration.
Roper ASW Poll conducted for Negative Population Growth (NPG), April 14-16, 2006

Over half of Americans (fifty-five percent) support the goal of reducing the population of 10 to 12 million illegal immigrants now residing in the United States "to near zero."
Roper ASW Poll conducted for Negative Population Growth (NPG), April 14-16, 2006

One hundred percent of Americans believe it is important that the government take steps this year to control U.S. borders to halt the flow of illegal aliens.
The Gallup Poll, April 7-9, 2006

Eighty-one percent of Americans believe that illegal immigration to the United States is "out of control."
The Gallup Poll, April 7-9, 2006

Almost all Americans (eighty-seven percent) say they are concerned illegals will overburden government services, including 61 percent that are "very" concerned and another 26 percent that are "somewhat" concerned.
Opinion Dynamics Poll for FOX News, April 4-5, 2006

Almost all Americans (ninety percent) say illegal immigration is a "very" serious (sixty percent) or "somewhat" serious (thirty percent) problem for the country today — essentially unchanged from a year ago this time.
Opinion Dynamics Poll for FOX News, April 4-5, 2006

The majority of Republicans (sixty-five percent) and Democrats (fifty-eight percent) say illegal immigration is a "very" serious problem.
Opinion Dynamics Poll for FOX News, April 4-5, 2006

Sixty-one percent said they are less likely to be sympathetic to illegal aliens as a result of the protests.
Zogby Poll, March 31-April 3, 2006

Eighty-two percent say that the United States is not doing enough to keep illegals from entering this country.
Time Magazine/SRBI Survey, March 29-30, 2006

Sixty-one percent say they are "very concerned" that illegal aliens cost taxpayers too much money to provide them with services.
Time Magazine/SRBI Survey, March 29-30, 2006

Sixty-two percent of Americans polled said they want their own congressional representative to support more restrictive policies governing immigration.
Zogby Poll, released March 19, 2006 / conducted February 3-7, 2006

Fifty-seven percent of American voters polled say illegal immigration into the U.S. is a "very serious problem."
Quinnipiac University National Poll, February 21-28, 2006

Eighty-three percent of American immigrant voters, or the children or grandchildren of immigrants, say illegal immigration is a serious problem.
Quinnipiac University National Poll, February 21-28, 2006

Sixty-two percent of American voters are opposed to making it easier for illegal immigrants to become citizens, with immigrant families opposed fifty-six percent.
Quinnipiac University National Poll, February 21-28, 2006

Seventy-three percent of Californians say they are concerned to some degree about illegal immigration, with forty-three percent being "extremely concerned."
Field Poll, February 12-26 2006

Fifty-seven percent of California voters say illegal immigration is having a negative effect on the state.
Field Poll, February 12-26 2006

Sixty percent of Americans polled say there are already too many people in the U.S. without adding illegal aliens.
Time Magazine/SRBI Survey, January 24-26, 2006

Eighty-nine percent of Americans polled say illegal immigration into the U.S. is a problem.
Time Magazine/SRBI Survey, January 24-26, 2006

Oppose Amnesty

By eight-to-one, Americans think it is unfair to grant rights to illegal immigrants while thousands of people wait each year to come to the United States legally. Fully eighty-six percent of Republicans think it is unfair, as do seventy-seven percent of Democrats.
Opinion Dynamics Poll for FOX News, April 4-5, 2006

Sixty-five percent of those surveyed said they would be willing to pay significantly higher prices for some goods and services should that be the result of tighter control of the southern U.S. border and a resulting lower number of undocumented workers.
Zogby Poll, March 31-April 3, 2006

Fifty-six percent of Americans polled say the U.S. should NOT grant temporary-worker status to foreigners who are here illegally, as this would make them and their families eligible for government services while they are here. We should not reward people who have broken the law, and this will encourage even more people to enter the United States illegally.
NBC News/Wall Street Journal Poll, March 10-13, 2006

Protect Jobs and Wages

Sixty percent of Americans favor imposing fines of tens of thousands of dollars on employers who hire illegal immigrants.
Opinion Research Corporation/Lou Dobbs poll, June 8-11, 2006

Eighty-one percent of Americans polled support strict criminal penalties on employers who, after repeatedly being cited, persist in knowingly hiring illegal aliens.
Roper ASW Poll conducted for Negative Population Growth (NPG), April 14-16, 2006

Eighty-four percent of Americans believe the most effective way to reduce illegal immigration is to cut off the employment incentive for coming here by instituting tough penalties for businesses that hire illegal immigrants. More than half think this would be "very effective," and another 32% say it would be "somewhat effective."
The Gallup Poll, April 7-9, 2006

Fifty-nine percent of black California voters favor imposing stiff penalties on employers and individuals who hire illegal aliens.
The Field Poll, April 3-10, 2006

Sixty percent of California voters favor imposing stiff penalties on employers and individuals who hire illegal aliens.
The Field Poll, April 3-10, 2006

Seventy-three percent of Americans favor imposing fines and criminal charges against employers who hire illegals.
Opinion Dynamics Poll for FOX News, April 4-5, 2006

More than ninety percent of NFIB small-business owners surveyed believe illegal immigration is a problem. Seventy percent rank it as a "very serious" or "serious" problem.
National Federation of Independent Business Research Foundation Member Survey on Immigration, April 4, 2006

Eighty-six percent of NFIB small-business owners surveyed say illegal immigration should have a "very high" or "high" priority for Congress and the Bush administration.
National Federation of Independent Business Research Foundation Member Survey on Immigration, April 4, 2006

Sixty-three percent of NFIB small-business owners surveyed oppose amnesty for illegal immigrants if they only need to prove that they have been living in the U.S. for at least three years.
National Federation of Independent Business Research Foundation Member Survey on Immigration, April 4, 2006

Increasing penalties for employers who knowingly hire illegal aliens was supported by seventy-eight percent of NFIB small-business owners surveyed.
National Federation of Independent Business Research Foundation Member Survey on Immigration, April 4, 2006

Seventy-one percent support major penalties for employers who hire illegals.
Time Magazine/SRBI Survey, March 29-30, 2006

Seventy-six percent of Americans polled are concerned that American workers can't afford to work for the same low wages as illegal aliens.
Time Magazine/SRBI Survey, January 24-26, 2006

Sixty-three percent of Americans polled are concerned about illegal aliens taking away jobs from American workers.
Time Magazine/SRBI Survey, January 24-26, 2006

Seventy-four percent of Americans polled favor providing major penalties for employers convicted of hiring illegal aliens and strongly enforcing it.
Time Magazine/SRBI Survey, January 24-26, 2006

Eighty percent on Arizona voters favor penalizing businesses that hire illegal aliens.
KAET-TV and Arizona State University's Walter Cronkite School of Journalism and Mass Communication poll, January 19-22, 2006

Support Tougher Enforcement

Seventy-eight percent of Americans favor putting more Border Patrol and federal law enforcement agents on the U.S. border with Mexico.
Opinion Research Corporation/Lou Dobbs poll, June 8-11, 2006

Fifty-six percent of Americans favor sending National Guard troops to the U.S. border with Mexico.
Opinion Research Corporation/Lou Dobbs poll, June 8-11, 2006

Seventy-nine percent of registered voters "favor" increasing the number of federal agents patrolling the border to stop illegal immigration.
FOX News/Opinion Dynamics Poll, May 16-18, 2006

Sixty-three percent of registered voters "favor" using thousands of National Guard troops temporarily to help border patrol agents along the Mexican border to stop illegal immigration.
FOX News/Opinion Dynamics Poll, May 16-18, 2006

Sixty-two percent of Americans say they would favor stationing 6,000 National Guard troops in a support capacity at the U.S.-Mexico border to try to stop illegal immigration.
CBS News Poll, May 16-17, 2006

Sixty-eight percent of Americans think stationing National Guard troops at the U.S.-Mexico border would be effective in reducing the number of illegal immigrants to the U.S.
CBS News Poll, May 16-17, 2006

Seventy-four percent of Americans support using National Guard troops to patrol the U.S. border with Mexico.
ABC News/Washington Post Poll, May 12-14, 2006

Seventy-four percent of Americans support using National Guard troops to patrol the U.S.-Mexico border.
Washington Post-ABC News poll, April 14-16, 2006

Of those Americans polled who favored the goal of halting new illegal immigration, 64 percent support tough penalties against violators such as fines and mandatory prison terms, followed by deportation.
Roper ASW Poll conducted for Negative Population Growth (NPG), April 14-16, 2006

Of those Americans polled who favored reducing to near zero the number of resident illegal aliens, 72 percent of that group also support tough penalties against violators such as fines and mandatory prison terms, followed by deportation.
Roper ASW Poll conducted for Negative Population Growth (NPG), April 14-16, 2006

Sixty-one percent of Americans support making illegal immigration a crime, and fifty-two percent support making it a crime to knowingly assist an illegal alien.
The Gallup Poll, April 7-9, 2006

Sixty percent of Americans believe not allowing illegal aliens to use American schools and hospitals would be effective at reducing illegal immigration: thirty percent call this very effective and 30 percent say it is somewhat effective.
The Gallup Poll, April 7-9, 2006

The vast majority of Americans also see value in beefing up the number of border control officers: thirty-seven percent call this very effective and forty-four percent say it is somewhat effective.
The Gallup Poll, April 7-9, 2006

Sixty-six percent of black California voters favor building a wall along major sections of the border between the U.S. and Mexico to stop illegal aliens from entering the U.S.
The Field Poll, April 3-10, 2006

Sixty-four percent of California voters oppose allowing illegal aliens to obtain a driver's license in California.
The Field Poll, April 3-10, 2006

Fifty-seven percent of Americans polled favor deporting as many illegals as possible.
Opinion Dynamics Poll for FOX News, April 4-5, 2006

Fifty-five percent of Americans polled favor using the U.S. military to stop entry at the borders.
Opinion Dynamics Poll for FOX News, April 4-5, 2006

Eighty percent of Americans polled favor increasing the number of border patrol agents.
Opinion Dynamics Poll for FOX News, April 4-5, 2006

Americans would limit illegals' access to government services, such as driver’s licenses (sixty-nine percent not allow), health care/food stamps (seventy-five percent not allow), and attending public schools (fifty-one percent not allow).
Time Magazine/SRBI Survey, March 29-30, 2006

Sixty-two percent favor taking whatever steps are necessary at the borders, including the use of the military, to cut the flow of illegals into this country.
Time Magazine/SRBI Survey, March 29-30, 2006

Fifty-six percent favor building a security fence along the U.S.-Mexican border.
Time Magazine/SRBI Survey, March 29-30, 2006

Seventy-one percent of Americans polled say they are more likely to vote for a Congressional Candidate who favors tighter controls on illegal immigration.
NBC News/Wall Street Journal Poll, March 10-13, 2006

Seventy-one percent of Americans polled say they are concerned that illegal aliens increase the amount of crime.
Time Magazine/SRBI Survey, January 24-26, 2006

Seventy percent of Americans polled are concerned that illegal aliens increase the likelihood of terrorism in the United States.
Time Magazine/SRBI Survey, January 24-26, 2006

Seventy-four percent of Americans polled say the U.S. isn't doing enough along its borders to keep illegal aliens from crossing into this country.
Time Magazine/SRBI Survey, January 24-26, 2006

Oppose Rewards for
Illegal Migration

Fifty-three percent of Americans polled support legislation to deny automatic U.S. citizenship to children born here to parents who are illegal aliens.
Roper ASW Poll conducted for Negative Population Growth (NPG), April 14-16, 2006

Sixty-two percent of California voters oppose driver's licenses for illegal aliens.
Field Poll, February 12-26 2006

Seventy-two percent of American voters are opposed to allowing illegal immigrants to get drivers' licenses, with immigrant voter families opposed sixty-six percent.
Quinnipiac University National Poll, February 21-28, 2006

Eighty-four percent of American voters are in favor of requiring proof of legal residency in order to obtain government benefits, with immigrant voter families in support eighty percent.
Quinnipiac University National Poll, February 21-28, 2006

Eighty-three percent of Americans polled are concerned that it costs taxpayers too much money to provide illegal aliens with services such as health care and education.
Time Magazine/SRBI Survey, January 24-26, 2006

Hispanics on Immigration

Forty-six percent of Mexicans (approximately 46 million people) would immigrate to the United States and more than 20% of them would enter illegally if given the chance. Specifically:

65% of U.S.-born Latinos say Immigrants strengthen the U.S.
Twenty-eight percent of U.S.-born Latinos say immigrants are a burden on the U.S.
Eighty-nine percent of foreign-born Latinos say immigrants strengthen the U.S.
Five percent of foreign-born Latinos say immigrants are a burden on the U.S.
Eighty percent of all Latinos say immigrants strengthen the U.S.
Fourteen percent of all Latinos say Immigrants are a burden on the U.S.
Sixty percent of U.S.-born Latinos approve restricting driver's licenses to U.S. citizens or legal immigrants.
Twenty-nine percent of foreign-born Latinos approve restricting driver's licenses to U.S. citizens or legal immigrants.
Forty-five percent of Latinos residing in Mexico say they would move to the U.S. increase their family income by 7 times minimum wage.
Forty-five percent of Latinos residing in Mexico say they would move to the U.S. increase their family income by 3-7 times minimum wage.
Forty-seven percent of Latinos residing in Mexico say they would move to the U.S. increase their family income by 0-3 times minimum wage.
Pew Hispanic Center poll, August 2005
Black Americans on Immigration

Sixty-six percent of black California voters favor building a wall along major sections of the border between the U.S. and Mexico to stop illegal aliens from entering the U.S.
The Field Poll, April 3-10, 2006

Fifty-nine percent of black California voters favor imposing stiff penalties on employers and individuals who hire illegal aliens.
The Field Poll, April 3-10, 2006

Union Members on Immigration

Former Calif. Governor Gray Davis' granting of drivers licenses to illegal aliens was cited as a key reason why 31 percent of Democrats in unions were likely to vote to recall him.
Los Angeles Times Poll, September 2003

Business Owners on Immigration

More than ninety percent of NFIB small-business owners surveyed believe illegal immigration is a problem. Seventy percent rank it as a "very serious" or "serious" problem.
National Federation of Independent Business Research Foundation Member Survey on Immigration, April 4, 2006

Eighty-six percent of NFIB small-business owners surveyed say illegal immigration should have a "very high" or "high" priority for Congress and the Bush administration.
National Federation of Independent Business Research Foundation Member Survey on Immigration, April 4, 2006

Sixty-three percent of NFIB small-business owners surveyed oppose amnesty for illegal immigrants if they only need to prove that they have been living in the U.S. for at least three years.
National Federation of Independent Business Research Foundation Member Survey on Immigration, April 4, 2006

Increasing penalties for employers who knowingly hire illegal aliens was supported by seventy-eight percent of NFIB small-business owners surveyed.
National Federation of Independent Business Research Foundation Member Survey on Immigration, April 4, 2006

Moderates and Independents on Immigration

President Bush's job approval rating has dropped by 10 percentile from 60 to 50 percent. His approval rating matches the lowest of his entire presidency, and his disapproval rating is now at the highest ever at 45 percent. One of the three main reasons for the decline in the President's popularity is his wildly unpopular amnesty/guest worker proposal. Most of the President's huge decline in popularity has been among Independents.
CBS New Poll, January 2004

Women on Immigration

Over half (fifty-six percent) of women think legal immigration should be reduced. Only 10 percent of women think legal immigration should be increased.
CBS News/New York Times poll, September and December 2001

A majority of women (eighty-four percent) think the United States has made it too easy for people from other countries to enter the United States.
CBS News/New York Times poll, September and December 2001

Opinion Elites vs. Public

Fifty-four percent of those polled disapprove of President Bush's handling of immigration issues -- his lowest rating on any issue other than the budget deficit.
CNN/Gallup/USA Today poll, January 2005

[MACVSOG68]

I have already put in plenty of polls from January strongly oppossing open borders, strongly for penalising employers of illegals, and strongly against amnesty for illegal invaders.

Actually you didn't show me any polls showing strongly against either a guest worker program or an earned path to citizenship. But one poll you showed me that you apparently believed in "TIME" showed just the opposite. Yet you ignored those findings. At least a little honesty would be worth of a "conservative".

# 1. Our Republican congressmen have been swamped with phone calls, letters and town hall meetings wich are OVERWHELIMNGLY AGAINST ANY KIND OF AMNESTY FOR ILLEGALS. That that by far trumps any polls, because these are the peope that actually VOTE for our Republican candidates. I don't really care what RATS voters want. They don't vote for us.

No they don't, but what you forget is that in war, business and politics, unless you are holding a completely winning hand (which Republicans are not), you try for a win-win through negotiation. Since all the polls show that a majority of Americans want a comprehensive plan, it is clearly in the Democrats' interest that no bill make it before election time. That would show the Republicans actually doing something. Perish that thought.

# 2. Practically every poll out there has up to 12% more RATS in the samples than Republicans, which doesn't make any sense, given that Republicans have consistently gotten more votes in every House elections since 1994, including the most recent in 2002 and 2004 where we got at least 51% of the voote, and 3 million more votes than RATS in the 2004 presidential elections. So if you have samples with more RATS, that's not the view of Republican voters, which are the only people we care about.

That's why polls are weighted to account for differences if they are significant (more than 10%). So that dog don't hunt. You bring out all the polls, and when you find out they don't tell you what you want to hear, you trash them all.

And #3. The only poll that counts is the poll in November, and if our Republican congressmen continue do what their constintuents want and kill the Senate Shamnesty Bill ( which they are already doing very nicely), we will win again in November.

I agree, but you brought out all the polls. I just helped you complete your little poll project, since you inadvertently overlooked most of them.

You wouldn't would you? The Senate Bill is chock full of goodies( at American tax payers expense) for Mexicans, and amnesty for breaking plenty of Americans laws, including identity fraud, and social security fraud, not to mention immigration laws.

That is what the conference is designed to take care of. But for some reason, the House Republicans fear a conference. Lots of things in both bills that need to be negotiated out. As I said, since the Republicans are not sitting there with a straight flush, they will either have to negotiate or nothing.

"Another insult to our intelligence is that amnesty is not amnesty if you call it something else. The fact that illegals will have to fulfill certain requirements to become American citizens is supposed to mean that this is not amnesty.

That's like saying, if I am stopped and given a speeding ticket, once I pay the fine, I have been given amnesty because I can again drive? You like the term "amnesty? even though it is not, like somehow that is a watershed term. Look at the requirements instead of sticking labels on.

The fact that there are requirements for getting American citizenship is a separate issue entirely. Illegal aliens who do not choose to seek American citizenship are under no more jeopardy than before. They have de facto amnesty.

Of course they are under jeopardy if they do not register, etc. And at least we would have the tools to deal with them, under a comprehensive package.

Yet another insult to our intelligence is saying that, since we cannot find and deport 12 million people, the only choice left is to find some way to make them legal.

Well, with all your expertise in terrorism, why can't we find a few hundred known terrorists that in the Country now? And no, just as the President said, we cannot go out and find and deport 12 or 20 million illegals. There has to be something that will encourage a significant part of them to come in and register.

There is probably no category of law-breakers -- from counterfeiters to burglars or from jay-walkers to murderers -- who can all be found and arrested. But no one suggests that we must therefore make what they have done legal.

Maybe because that's what most Americans and half of Congress wants?

[MACVSOG68]

Help me out here. You spend 4 posts telling me how worthless the polls are, then you show a long string of polls almost all of which agree with what I have been saying to somehow show the polls I have shown you are false? And you have the gall to show the Time poll again, but ignoring the other questions in it which completely refute you point on what the American people really want? If that's all you want to do is to somehow construct a house of cards out of specific poll questions while ignoring the lion's share of them, save it for your buddies.

I would prefer a bit more intellectual honesty.

[Jameison]

MACVSOG68: "Help me out here. You spend 4 posts telling me how worthless the polls are"

Reality, from my post # 109:

I am rejecting nothing
I am merely pointing out that :

# 1. Our Republican congressmen have been swamped with phone calls, letters and town hall meetings which are OVERWHELIMNGLY AGAINST ANY KIND OF AMNESTY FOR ILLEGALS.
That that by far trumps any polls, because these are the peope that actually VOTE for our Republican candidates.
I don't really care what RATS voters want. They don't vote for us.

# 2. Practically every poll out there has up to 12% more RATS in the samples than Republicans, which doesn't make any sense, given that Republicans have consistently gotten more votes in every House elections since 1994, including the most recent in 2002 and 2004 where we got at least 51% of the vote, and 3 million more votes than RATS in the 2004 presidential elections.
So if you have samples with more RATS, that's not the view of Republican voters, which are the only people we care about.
And #3. The only poll that counts is the poll in November, and if our Republican congressmen continue do what their constituents want and kill the Senate Shamnesty Bill ( which they are already doing very nicely), we will win again in November.

[freedumb2003]

ibtz?

[Jameison]

"No they don't, but what you forget is that in war, business and politics, unless you are holding a completely winning hand (which Republicans are not)"

We do.
We control congress.
And we have the votes in The House.
We have basically succeeded in killing the evil Senate Bill already.
As I have pointed out over and over again, we already have the law do deal with illegal immigrants, so no new Senate Bill at all, is better better by far than the evil Senate Bil.
Another thing this is not a war.

"you try for a win-win through negotiation. "


Is that what you call the evil piece of ;legislation called The Senate Immigration Bill?
Its a lose, lose for Americans.
We are not going to "negotiate" like how Chamberlain "negotiated" with Hitler, and ended up handing the whole of Europe to Hitler resulting ina war that killed over 50 million.


"Since all the polls show that a majority of Americans want a comprehensive plan"

They don't.


"it is clearly in the Democrats' interest that no bill make it before election time"

Democrat can do what they like.
Its by following such dumb ass policies that they have lost every national elections for 6 years, and lost control of the House (which is more representative of what voters think than Senate) since 1994.



"That would show the Republicans actually doing something. Perish that thought."

It will show Republicans are stopping the evil Senate Bill, and not doing a Neville Chamberlain by surrendering to blackmail from Mexico and selling our national heritage to a bunch of Mexican illegals that wave American flags upside down and yell "gringo go home" chants.

[MACVSOG68]

Another thing this is not a war.

We are not going to "negotiate" like how Chamberlain "negotiated" with Hitler, and ended up handing the whole of Europe to Hitler resulting ina war that killed over 50 million.

So it's not a war, but it is a war? So anytime anyone negotiates, it is tantamount to Chamberlain?

As I have pointed out over and over again, we already have the law do deal with illegal immigrants, so no new Senate Bill at all, is better better by far than the evil Senate Bil.

Yep, so then there really was no reason for the House bill, since we already have effective laws. Good one.

They don't.

Oops, I forgot. The questions dealing with that are to be eliminated. Only the questions that pertain to strong borders and enforcement are to be kept in. I keep forgetting the ground rules for intellectual honesty...

Democrat can do what they like. Its by following such dumb ass policies that they have lost every national elections for 6 years, and lost control of the House (which is more representative of what voters think than Senate) since 1994. Well, if you are correct, we should gain no less than 75 more House seats, and up our Senate seats to around 70.

It will show Republicans are stopping the evil Senate Bill, and not doing a Neville Chamberlain by surrendering to blackmail from Mexico and selling our national heritage to a bunch of Mexican illegals that wave American flags upside down and yell "gringo go home" chants.

Yep, we Republicans showed them alright.

[Jameison]

"That's why polls are weighted to account for differences if they are significant (more than 10%). So that dog don't hunt. You bring out all the polls, and when you find out they don't tell you what you want to hear, you trash them all."

Again they are not.
And I have already provided he proof in my post # 111.


"That is what the conference is designed to take care of. But for some reason, the House Republicans fear a conference. Lots of things in both bills that need to be negotiated out. As I said, since the Republicans are not sitting there with a straight flush, they will either have to negotiate or nothing."

# 1. The House doesn't fear anybody, as they have shown by constantly trsahing the more heinous aspects of the funny Senate Bill. I don't see to many people from The Senate side on TV defending their evil acts.

# 2. The Senate Bill is a non starter.
Its like trying to build a house on a foundation of mush.
You are not gonna get anywhere no matter what you put on top of such a weak foundation.
The Senate Bill just needs to be allowed to die in peace.
The House Bill is the ply bill that makes any sense, and that Republicans overwhelmingly support.

As for "negotiate or nothing" that's fine.
At least we are not giving amnesty to a bunch of Mexican illegals.
And we already have strong immigration laws to deal with these illegals.
And as more and more of these suckers flood in, the anti-illegals sentiment in this country is only gong to get stronger.
Already 20 states have passed laws containing provisions for very tough, harsh treatment of illegals.
Its only going to get worse for illegals, whether a bill is passed in congress or not.
you lose either way.
So sorry.