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Libertarians are Liberals
http://www.moral-politics.com ^
| Moral-Politics.com
Posted on 05/03/2006 2:49:08 PM PDT by ghostmonkey
Often I see Libertarians refer to themselves as "Conservatives" or "Right". Yet, many times, on many web-boards, I see the libertarians taking the same positions as Demonrats, and they seem to support Demonrats over Republicans.
I did a bit of research, and I found why this might be the case. Libertarianism is actually in the same political system as Liberalism.
http://www.moral-politics.com/xPolitics.aspx?menu=Political_Ideologies&action=Draw&choice=PoliticalIdeologies.All
TOPICS: Society
KEYWORDS: drugskilledbelushi; framing; huffingtonpost; lakoff; languagegames; leftism; liberals; liberaltarian; liberdopians; libertarian; libertarians; parlorgames; rockridgeinstitute; wordplay
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To: ghostmonkey
It puts facism to the right of social republicanism, doesn't it?
41
posted on
05/03/2006 3:11:15 PM PDT
by
wizardoz
To: M203M4
Every broad political philosophy has its nutjobs - you do know that not all libertarians are anarchists, right? Take Sowell, Friedman, and Hayek, for example. Salma Hayek is a libertarian? That is so hot.
42
posted on
05/03/2006 3:12:57 PM PDT
by
tortoise
(All these moments lost in time, like tears in the rain.)
To: Dead Corpse
Yes, under libertarian politics you can have a whore in one land legally and your grandpa dying in the streets in front of your house in front of the kids next door.
43
posted on
05/03/2006 3:12:59 PM PDT
by
A CA Guy
(God Bless America, God bless and keep safe our fighting men and women.)
To: ghostmonkey
I came in as a -7 on Moral Rules, and 5 on the Moral Order scale. This puts me in the Ultra-Capitalist category on the Moral Rules category, and Paleoconservative on the Moral Order scale. This would pretty well fit my political views (limited government, "original intent" Constitutionalist, and free market) and my religious and moral views (Calvinist Christian). However, I do not know how valid this matrix is. As a matter of agreement, I concur with libertarians on the role of the Federal government and economics. However, my views on the extent of absolute individual freedom in the context of local government authority are mainstream conservative.
To: wizardoz
Well, it says I'm a conservative neoliberal bordering ultra-capitalism. Not a big surprise.
45
posted on
05/03/2006 3:13:28 PM PDT
by
wizardoz
To: wizardoz; ghostmonkey
46
posted on
05/03/2006 3:13:36 PM PDT
by
oblomov
(Join the FR Folding@Home Team (#36120) keyword: folding@home)
To: oblomov
I must also add, it makes sense that the following definitions would be in different systems:
--------------------
Moral Conservatism is the variation of Conservatism that emphasizes Conformance over Independence. People in this category will tend to have stronger opinions about enforcing the moral order (religious conformance, strict family values, lesser freedom of expression, stricter laws...) than about favoring individual initiatives (lower taxes, less corporate and environmental regulations, ...). This variation overlaps with these ideologies: 1. Fundamentalism 2. PaleoConservatism 3. Capital Republicanism
-------------------
Moral Liberalism is the variation of Liberalism that emphasizes NonConformance over Independence. People in this category will tend to have stronger opinions about loosening the moral order (gay rights, ecology, drug legalization,...) than about favoring individual initiatives (lower taxes, less corporate and environmental regulations, ...). This variation overlaps with these ideologies: 1. Libertarian_Capitalism 2. Progressivism 3. Capital Democratism 4. Progressive NeoLiberalism
To: A CA Guy
Maybe you should treat your grandparents better then...
How is your grandfather any of my business?
48
posted on
05/03/2006 3:14:13 PM PDT
by
Dead Corpse
(I believe that all government is evil, and that trying to improve it is largely a waste of time.)
To: oblomov
That might very well be. But simply stating that a Socialist runs the website is Ad Hominem. Can you show me a specific problems with the definitions???
To: Wallace T.
I scored 8 on the Moral Order axis and -8 on the Moral Rules axis. I fell into the very bottom right box.
I overlapped two Ideologies: Fundamentalism & Ultra Capitalism. It's accurate for me.
To: Michael Goldsberry
Libertarians are fiscally conservative and socially liberal. By today's standards, they're not even all that 'socially liberal'. Today's government seeks to actively encourage bad behaviors, both in words (especially in the education system) and in its denial (and mitigation) of their consequences. Libertarians believe that if people were allowed and forced to bear the natural consequences of their own bad actions, there would be no need for the state to explicitly punish them, except in cases where the natural consequences of a person's bad actions would fall upon someone other than the actor.
While I think that the libertarians and Libertarians' platform goes too far in some ways, it's certainly closer to where this country should be than where it is now, and probably closer than the platforms actually held to by most "Republicans".
51
posted on
05/03/2006 3:18:15 PM PDT
by
supercat
(Sony delenda est.)
To: ghostmonkey
"The conservative thinks of political policies as intended to preserve order, justice, and freedom. The ideologue, on the contrary, thinks of politics as a revolutionary instrument for transforming society and even transforming human nature. In his march toward Utopia, the ideologue is merciless.
- Russell Kirk,
The Mind of the ConservativeMost libertarans I have come across are ideologues in the worst sense of the word. They want a radically different society in which the traditional bindings of moral and social order (particularly religion and the family unit) have been loosened and let fall in a heap.
At best, most libertarians are unthinking conservatives. They only consider one half of any political or social equation: "How does this !@#$%^&* affect ME?"
52
posted on
05/03/2006 3:18:45 PM PDT
by
JCEccles
(Kitzmiller Syndrome: anger and paranoia that someone is harboring critical thoughts about darwinism.)
To: ghostmonkey
Everytime I see a libertarian on FR claiming they will never vote Republican again (Bush's fault) I cringe.
All they are doing is taking votes away from the GOP and increasing the dems chances.
Case in point was Perot. Thanks to morons who voted for Perot....... we had the Beverly Hillbillies for 8 years.
(and yes I know Perot was no libertarian)
53
posted on
05/03/2006 3:18:58 PM PDT
by
Responsibility2nd
(A Moose Once Bit my Sister. Yeah. She Turned Moose-lim.)
To: Dead Corpse
Like I said, in a great population Libertarian politics is a bust. If you crash on an island like the series "LOST" on ABC, it could be ideal.
54
posted on
05/03/2006 3:19:17 PM PDT
by
A CA Guy
(God Bless America, God bless and keep safe our fighting men and women.)
To: wizardoz
I scored 92.02% with Ronald Reagan. Interesting.
55
posted on
05/03/2006 3:19:27 PM PDT
by
Dead Corpse
(I believe that all government is evil, and that trying to improve it is largely a waste of time.)
To: ghostmonkey
You took a resaonable definition of libertarianism and added two unfounded judgements into it. You even marked them for us with ----- so they are easily seen as the BS they are.
You sir are arguing from a false premise (that the two axies' for political though are conformism and interdependence). Trying to view the world threw this lens will only give you stupid answers.
No reasoning person calls themselves 'independent' in the modern world (build you own computer out of sand?). The question is 'How do you manage the exchange of support?'. Pure authoritarians want the government to do the managing. Pure capitalists let markets work it out without government interferance beyond the effort to keep the markets functioning. Authoritarians also love to regulate morality.
56
posted on
05/03/2006 3:21:13 PM PDT
by
Dinsdale
To: oblomov
There are far more than two dimensions in the mapping of political ideologiesExactly. This thread has been begging for that observation. Thank you.
To: ghostmonkey
I disagree that one may describe ideologies by two dimensions, namely: moral rules and moral order. There are far more dimensions, and the greatest distinctions are not in the application of moral frameworks, but in the justifications for the state itself and in beliefs about human nature.
For example, right-libertarians have a natural law basis for their ideology (they believe in inalienable rights granted by God, threatened by the state), while left-liberals have a positivist legal theory (rights are established by the state).
This is just one example of the flaws in Lakoff's framework. I suggest you read Anarchy, State, Utopia by Robert Nozick for a better understanding of true libertarianism, as opposed to the Ayn Rand cartoon version.
58
posted on
05/03/2006 3:22:10 PM PDT
by
oblomov
(Join the FR Folding@Home Team (#36120) keyword: folding@home)
To: A CA Guy
You wish. In a libertarian society, no one demands anything from anyone else as some imagined "Right". Everyone provides for their ownself FIRST, this includes ALWAYS being armed to provide for your own security.
Just that last one being exercized on 9-11, and there would still be a WTC in New York.
Government would be nearly non-existant. And the list goes on. But, you'd rather twist things, apply your own bias instead of how most people go through life anyway, and come up with absurd examples. Knock yourself out, but it makes you look kinda silly.
59
posted on
05/03/2006 3:23:09 PM PDT
by
Dead Corpse
(I believe that all government is evil, and that trying to improve it is largely a waste of time.)
To: andrew2527
60
posted on
05/03/2006 3:24:21 PM PDT
by
Dead Corpse
(I believe that all government is evil, and that trying to improve it is largely a waste of time.)
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