Libertarians are Liberals

http://www.moral-politics.com ^ | Moral-Politics.com

[ghostmonkey]

Often I see Libertarians refer to themselves as "Conservatives" or "Right". Yet, many times, on many web-boards, I see the libertarians taking the same positions as Demonrats, and they seem to support Demonrats over Republicans.

I did a bit of research, and I found why this might be the case. Libertarianism is actually in the same political system as Liberalism.

http://www.moral-politics.com/xPolitics.aspx?menu=Political_Ideologies&action=Draw&choice=PoliticalIdeologies.All

[Dead Corpse]

Absolute private property Rights. Absolute Second Amendment Rights. Free market capitalism. Total free speech. "Taxation is theft" philosophy. Total freedom OF religion.

Wow... (sarc) sounds horrible...(/sarc)

[Dinsdale]

Only if you accept the stupid definitions the sights author pulled out of his !@#$. Which would end discussion.

[ghostmonkey]

Here is how the Four Systems are defined:

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Liberalism is a political system that blends NonConformance and Independence.

Liberalism sees individual liberty as the highest values in social and economical life. It favors the right to dissent from orthodox tenets or established authorities in social or economical matters.

This definition of Liberalism (there are many) blends the social aspects of U.S. Liberalism [NonConformance] with the economic aspects of European Liberalism [Independence].

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Socialism is a political system that blends NonConformance and Interdependence.

Socialism believes society can and should be organised along social lines, that is, for the benefit of all, rather than for what is perceived as the profit of a few [Interdependence]. Its key ideas are opposition to capitalism, and a belief in equality, both political and economic [NonConformance].

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Authoritarianism is a political system that blends Conformance and Interdependence.

People in this category will want the government to play two essential roles: 1) Enforce the moral order and 2) Ensure that the state or its members are the primary benefiaries of the actions of individuals.

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Conservatism is a political system that blends Conformance and Independence.

Conservatism is a tendency to resist rapid change and to support traditional norms, where "traditional norms" is meant to be the type of moral order and rules that existed in previous times (e.g. Europe and North America prior to the 1950's, stricter religious periods...).

In a conservative state, citizens are subject to state authority primarily in the area of social behavior aspects of their lives.

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[Dead Corpse]

The exact opposite of "libertarian".

[A CA Guy]

They want to do all these dangerous things and the bottom line is they can easily come back and cost the tax payers big dollars and in the case of drugs corrupt the youth.

It's no problem if they go to an island and sodomize each other while smoking crack and howling at the moon, but when they want to practice various subculture lifestyle among a population it becomes an issue.

A Libertarian wanting in other words is better tolerated in an isolated area where nobody can be affected by them or know anything instead of among a highly populated area.

[tacticalogic]

You seem to use the terms "Libertarian" (big "L" - political party) and "libertarian" (small "l" - political philosophy) interchangeably.

It might be easier to have a discussion about it if we know exactly who or what it is we're discussing.

[B Knotts]

Actually, the people commonly referred to as "liberals" in this country are not liberals; they are leftists.

Libertarians are not "liberals" per the common American usage; they are, though, liberals in the historical sense.

[wizardoz]

Any grid that puts Fascism to the right of Republicanism is instantly pretty damn suspect to me, but I'll check it out.

[ghostmonkey]

You are flat out wrong. You also don't have a clue what libertarianism is. Show me how the following definition is wrong: ------------- Libertarian Capitalism is an extreme form of Moral Liberalism. It is a political philosophy which advocates individual rights and a limited government. Libertarian Capitalists believe individuals should be free to do anything they want, so long as they do not infringe upon the equal rights of others. They further believe that the only legitimate use of force, whether public or private, is to protect those rights. For libertarians, there are no positive rights (such as to food or shelter or health care), only negative rights (such as to not be assaulted, abused, robbed or censored). --------------------- That Definition falls into the extreme end of the Lower Left Box. (Liberalism).

[Kenny Bunkport]

I once flirted with joining the Libertarian Party, but when I discovered that the only thing their rank and file really care about is decriminalizing drugs and prostitution, I passed.

[Dead Corpse]

I can only speak for myself, but I have never, nor will I ever, vote Democrat. I cannot vote for a socialist no matter what their political party.

Also, think of the political spectrum as a diamond. Political left on the left. Right on the right. Libertarians up top and Authoritarians on the bottom. World's Smallest Political Quiz puts me one notch from the top center.

[oblomov]

Do you buy the socialist George Lakoff's framework? He's all about framing, doncha know. If you buy into his framing, you will reach the exact conclusion he wants you to.

There are far more than two dimensions in the mapping of political ideologies.

[ghostmonkey]

Any grid that puts Fascism to the right of Republicanism is instantly pretty damn suspect to me, but I'll check it out.
It actually doesn't. It puts Fascism in a completely different Box than Conservativism. Fascism falls into the Upper Right Box, where as Republicanism would fall into the Lower Right Box.

[apackof2]

Libertarian: A person with faith in the natural wisdom and restraint of pro wrestling fans.

[Dead Corpse]

They want to do all these dangerous things and the bottom line is they can easily come back and cost the tax payers big dollars and in the case of drugs corrupt the youth.

How? In a libertarian society, there are no social costs as there are no socialist programs designed to keep people with a self destructive lifestyle alive.

What seems to be upsetting you is the fact that people out there might be doing things you don't approve of. Tough. Deal with it. There are people out there doing things I'm fairly certain I don't approve of. It isn't any of my business. If they try to initiate force/fraud/theft agaisnt me or mine, then I'll kill them. It's what we have a Second Amendment for.

Pretty soon, you'd run out of Hippy wanna-be's through sheer attrition and the species would excise that self destructive trait from the gene pool. This is a good thing.

Time to stop standing in Darwin's way.

[ghostmonkey]

Do you buy the socialist George Lakoff's framework? He's all about framing, doncha know. If you buy into his framing, you will reach the exact conclusion he wants you to.
Can you show me a specific problem with the definitions?

[M203M4]

Every broad political philosophy has its nutjobs - you do know that not all libertarians are anarchists, right? Take Sowell, Friedman, and Hayek, for example.

[Dead Corpse]

The current LP has been over run with anti-war pacifists. Check out the candidates directly though. Some really are worth serious consideration. Especially those who are pro-Iraq war and closed borders. Like the radio show host Boortz.

[tacticalogic]

Terms like "liberal", "conservative", "reactionary", and "revolutionary" are politically relative. Terms like "libertarian" and "socialist" are politically absolute. When you start throwing them in together you get a bunch of meaningless drivel, which is exactly what you have here.

[Dead Corpse]

Libertarian: A person with faith in the natural wisdom and restraint of pro wrestling fans.

Who will either behave themselves with respect to others, or get shot for their asshattery. You guys keep leaving that part out. Why is that?