Freep a South Florida poll (Hi, Mom!)

Sun-Sentinel ^ | 2-19-06 | sun-sentinel

[dynachrome]

A White House task force wants voters in Puerto Rico to decide whether the island stays an American possession, joins the U.S. as the 51st state or becomes an independent nation. Which choice is best?

51st state. Independence. Remaining an American possession.

[cll]

I wonder why some of the most liberal democrats in Congress oppose statehood for Puerto Rico. Kennedy, Gutierrez, etc. Voting trend on the island do not follow voting trends in so-called Puerto Rican communities on the mainland. They know real Puerto Ricans will call their bluff.

[cll]

How's this:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1411806/posts

I haven't upadated that list. It now numbers at over 48.

Please remember that you're talking about American citizens.

Thanks.

[AuH2ORepublican]

Residents of Puerto Rico have never voted for Democrats or Republicans in general elections, and your assumption that they would vote Democrat seems to be based on the fact that (mostly low-income) children and grandchildren of Puerto Ricans in NYC and Chicago vote Democrat for President. But have you noticed that the Irish and Italians and Poles and just about every other ethnicity in NYC and Chicago votes Democrat for President? While Florida Puerto Ricans (who are for the most part recent transplants from the Island) voted for Gore in 2000, they voted for Jeb in 2002 and (according to some polls) for W. in 2004 and seem poised to make the GOP their permanent home, since they are for the most part very culturally conservative and understand the importance of the War on Terror.

BTW, if Puerto Rico were to become a state, it would rank 25th in population and would elect 2 Senators and 6 Representatives. I have no idea who would get elected at first---probably likeable politicians who had previously run under the local party labels---but within a few years I think you'd find that Puerto Rican voters are very similar to those in Louisiana: Very conservative on social issues, more liberal on economic issues, very pro-military (despite calling for the closing of the Vieques bombing range, which was a NIMBY issue, and which only came up after a civilian guard died in a bombing accident) and very protectionist of local industries. Pollster Frank Luntz found that voters in Puerto Rico ranked as very conservative on every social issue that he asked about except the death penalty (where the Catholic tradition leads most people to oppose it, although not as much as they used to). If I had to guess, I would say that 20 years after Puerto Rico is admitted as a state it will have 1 Republican and 1 Democrat Senator and 3 Republican and 3 Democrat Representatives.

Puerto Ricans have been U.S. citizens since 1917 and have participated in every military conflict in which the U.S. has been involved since World War I. Saying that Puerto Rico should become independent would be like kicking Mississippi out of the Union because a large percentage of the population is below the poverty line.

An overwhelming majority of residents of Puerto Rico prefer statehood over independence, and the only reason why statehood doesn't get 80% support in the polls is because a lot of Puerto Ricans benefit (or think they benefit) from the current status in which the federal income tax does not apply to Puerto Rico-source income but in which Congress sends like $16 billion a year to Puerto Rico (although, in fairness, a huge chunk of that are Social Security and Medicare payments, and residents of Puerto Rico pay Social Security and Medicare taxes just like everyone else). What Congress needs to do is tell the U.S. citizens in Puerto Rico to "fish or cut bait."

[stockstrader]

Puerto Rican Americans vote heavily democratic (you can look up the percentages as easily as I am). It's a good assumption that those same voting trends would apply from the island too.

I'm not willing to risk two more democrats in the Senate and six more democratic congressmen.

[AuH2ORepublican]

"Puerto Rican Americans vote heavily democratic (you can look up the percentages as easily as I am). It's a good assumption that those same voting trends would apply from the island too."

---

I do not believe that assumption to be correct. Puerto Ricans who moved to New York City and Chicago during the Great Depression were for the most part uneducated, displaced farm hands and at the bottom of the economic spectrum, and became Democrats during the FDR era, same as most other people who moved to NYC and Chicago at the time; remember, the closest thing to a Republican-leaning ethnic group in NYC and Chicago are Italian-Americans, and even they voted for Clinton and Gore by large margins and for Kerry by a smaller margin (I'm talking about Italians who live in the city, not the suburbs). The barrio mentality has kept the "Newyorrican" vote heavily Democrat ever since, although when they move to the suburbs they become far less Democrat.

But if you look at Puerto Ricans from the Island who have moved to the mainland during the past 20 years, who are far better educated than the displaced farmers of the 1930s, it is clear that their votes are up for grabs. The top mainland destination for Puerto Ricans is the Orlando area (for decades it has been the #1 travel destination, but now it is seen as a place to relocate as well), with a couple of hundred thousand Puerto Ricans moving there, and exit polls show that while Orlando-area Puerto Ricans voted for Gore in 2000, they voted for Jeb Bush in the 2002 gubernatorial race and were split around 50-50 between President Bush and Senator Kerry in 2004 (while voting for GOP Senator Mel Martinez). And if you consider the fact that many of the Puerto Ricans who live in the Orlando area are not originally from Puerto Rico but are second- and third-generation Puerto Ricans from New York, Connecticut, New Jersey and Illinois, and thus tend to be stuck in their old voting habits (most Northerners who move to Florida take their voting habits south with them, which is why South Florida areas populated by Jewish New Yorkers vote Democrat while those populated by suburban Pennsylvanians and Midwesterners vote Republican), it is apparent that the U.S. citizens who moved from Puerto Rico to Florida are increasingly voting for Republicans, not at as high a percentage as Cuban-Americans, but at comparable percentages to other Florida Catholics.

[cll]

"Puerto Rican Americans..."

No hyphenated Americans, please. We are Puerto Ricans and that makes us Americans.

"It's a good assumption that those same voting trends would apply from the island too."

Puerto Rico is overwhelmingly Roman Catholic or Evangelical Protestant. There are approx. 200,000 living veterans on the island. When they learn that the Dems are the party of abortion, gay marriage, weak national defense, high taxes, big government, they will lean Republican. At worst, it will be about evenly split.

Regardless:

"I do not care about politics-I care about what is right. For Puerto Rico to be a state would be good, but at the end, the people of Puerto Rico will have the last word about statehood."

-President George W. Bush

"We've always been a land of varied cultural backgrounds and origins and we believe firmly that our strength is our diversity. There is much Puerto Rico can contribute to our nation which is why I personally favor Statehood. We hope you will join us."

-President Ronald Reagan

"We support the right of the United States citizens of Puerto Rico to be admitted to the Union as a fully sovereign state after they freely so determine."

-2004 Republican Party Platform

"I have been a pro-statehood believer and I remain one...Estadidad Ahora!"

-President George H.W. Bush

[cll]

More on this:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1201260/posts

[4Freedom]

"The only registered pro-independence political party on the island consistently gets less than 5% of the vote in each general election."

Take away the Commonwealth option, 'leave the bars open', just to paraphrase 'The National Geographic Magazine', and Independence will receive a majority of the vote in Puerto Rico.

[4Freedom]

The two of you would have the rest of us believe that the residents of Puerto Rico pay more in Social Security and Medicare taxes than the claimants on the island receive in benefits? Prove it.

You two live on the island. Give us a link to where you found those statistics.

How many billions do the residents of Puerto Rico pay into those programs and how many billions do the residents of Puerto Rico receive from those programs each year?

Give us the totals, not your phony baloney percentages.

Put up or shut up, already.

[Mobile Vulgus]

You STILL didn't answer why PR benefits the USA in this day and age. All it would do is add to heavily Democratic representation and that would NOT be good for the USA.

[Clemenza]

We have enough PRs on the mainland already voting Dem, playing music too loud, and polluting our gene pool. No thanks! ;-)

But seriously folks, an island where:

31% of the population of Puerto Rico is employed in the public sector. That DOES NOT include police officers or civilian employees on military bases, that would bring that figure to close to 50%.

32.8% of personal income in Puerto Rico is attributable to TRANSFER PAYMENTS from Washington (ie welfare), as of 2003.

In 1989, Puerto Rico received 72 times more food stamps than Mississippi, half the island's population currently receives food stamps as of 2002.

Puerto Ricans are American only in the political sense. They are not Americans culturally by any means, no more so than the average Panamanian. Cll and AUh2orepublican know where I stand and you have heard their arguments.

In any event, Commonwealth status will remain the norm for the forseeable future. The statehood folks are corrupt and the independence folks are a joke.

[Clemenza]

See #51.

[4Freedom]

"There are approx. 200,000 living veterans on the island."

Yeah, they're working 200,000 of the federal government jobs that have been hijacked to Puerto Rico.

That's why most of them enlisted in the U.S. Military in the first place. The only way to get a job with the U.S. post Office on Puerto Rico is to serve in the U.S. Military, first. Applicants with military service get a hiring preference, or didn't you know that?

If we make an announcement that the thousands of jobs in Puerto Rico with the IRS, U.S. Customs, Border Patrol, DEA, Immigration, U.S. Marshals, U.S. Post Office, EPA, Dept of Highways and Transportation, FAA, Fish and Wildlife, National Parks, FEMA, TSA, etc., etc., ad infinitum were moving to Mississippi in 6 months, that's where all those veterans and their families would go, too.

Maybe we can ship the Urban Train to Mississippi, too.

[AuH2ORepublican]

"You STILL didn't answer why PR benefits the USA in this day and age."

---

Puerto Rico benefits the U.S. in the same way that Alabama benefits the U.S., and harms the U.S. in the same way that Alabama harms the U.S. A state or territory is composed of people that each do their part in making America what it is today. That's as true for the 4.5 million U.S. citizens in Alabama as it is for the 3.9 million U.S. citizens in Puerto Rico.

But I believe that cll helped answer your question by linking to a list of names of the U.S. military personnel from Puerto Rico who have made the ultimate sacrifice in the War on Terror. Frankly, I don't know how else to answer your question. Perhaps if you answered how Alabama benefits the U.S. in this day and age it would help me answer the question for Puerto Rico.

"All it would do is add to heavily Democratic representation and that would NOT be good for the USA."

---

I agree that adding a heavily Democrat representation to Congress would not be good for our nation, but (i) you obviously did not read my reply regarding how Puerto Rico would probably be a swing state given the fact that its population is socially conservative and economically liberal-to-moderate, and (ii) Rhode Island is a liberal cesspool that hasn't sent a conservative to Congress in decades, yet I do not believe that it should be kicked out of the U.S.

[4Freedom]

"The current arrangement is costing each of you about $400.00 a year. Statehood would bring tax parity."

More misinformation.

What percentage of the residents of Puerto Rico earn enough to actually pay net income tax at the end of the year?

Are you aware that Puerto Rican residents collect $300 million in Earned Income Tax Credit Checks every year without paying any federal income taxes now?

Statehood for Puerto Rico would cost the U.S. Taxpayers billions more every year than Commonwealth does now.

Who are you trying to kid?

[Mobile Vulgus]

No, I DID read your bit on PR being a "swing state" and I don't BUY it. It WOULD be a leftist cesspool and that can't help the USA. I am NOT for adding PR to our official political scene if it brings in even ONE more anti-American Dummicrat into the system.

I am for PR independence, I feel. The only reason we have it as a territory in the first place is because of the annexation frenzy of the late 1800s and early 1900s.

I just don't see a THING PR could do FOR the USA at this point but drag us down.

Last, your fluff about how does Alabama "benefit us" is an absurd point to make. Alabama IS A STATE. We are not talking about adding or subtracting Alabama. We ARE talking about adding PR! Alabama is a foregone conclusion, PR is NOT.

Certainly I would not attempt to say that any PR person who served in our armed forces does not deserve any recognition. but their service does not automatically somehow cement the legitimacy of PR becoming a state.

Personally, I'd rather see us jettison the whole deal. Let them go on their own.

[4Freedom]

Thanks for the numbers, Clemenza. The 2 islanders just make stuff up.

Did you read where one of them wrote that statehood for Puerto Rico would give us tax parity? I read one Conservative estimate that Puerto Rico statehood would cost the U.S. Taxpayers another $3 billion dollars each year.

If that's tax parity, they can shove it.

[AuH2ORepublican]

"Last, your fluff about how does Alabama "benefit us" is an absurd point to make. Alabama IS A STATE. We are not talking about adding or subtracting Alabama. We ARE talking about adding PR! Alabama is a foregone conclusion, PR is NOT."

---

Well, now I'm talking about kicking Alabama out. Fair is fair. Alabama receives more from the federal government than it pays in taxes; how many millions will we spend on rebuilding Mobile? Alabama has voted the right way recently (in federal races; its state legislature is still mostly RAT and is in bed with the trial lawyers and teacher unions), but in 1976 Alabamians voted for Jimmah Carter and subjected us to 4 years of his incompetence, and until 1994 the state had 2 Democrat U.S. Senators. So maybe we're better off without Alabama.

But we should not kick out Alabama, should we? Of course not! And do you know why? Because the 4.5 million residents of Alabama are U.S. citizens, and we do not kick our fellow U.S. citizens to the curb regardless of their per-capita GDP. While Puerto Rico is not a state, it is part of the U.S., and its 3.9 million residents are U.S. citizens (well, 3.8 million of them are, with the rest being immigrants). If the people of Puerto Rico want to become independent, that is one thing, but to say that we should kick out Puerto Rico because it is relatively poor is, frankly, un-American.

BTW, if you want to talk about a liberal cesspool, look no further than the District of Columbia. Election after election, the GOP presidential candidate gets around 10% of the vote in DC. However, the residents of DC are U.S. citizens and they should be given the right to elect representatives to Congress, the body that passes laws that applies to them. That is why I support admitting a State of New Columbia that would include DC and its suburbs in Maryland and Virginia. My plan would not only enfranchise the U.S. citizens of DC, but would help the GOP in winning the presidency and maintaining our majority in the Senate. See http://auh2orepublican.blogspot.com/2005/08/fair-and-reasonable-alternative-to-dc.html

[4Freedom]

"While Puerto Rico is not a state, it is part of the U.S., and its 3.9 million residents are U.S. citizens (well, 3.8 million of them are, with the rest being immigrants)."

Everyone born on the island of Puerto Rico has statutory U.S. citizenship awarded by an act of the U.S. congress and it can and should be revoked by a similar act of congress.

After all the billions of dollars the U.S. Taxpayers have squandered on the ingrates in Puerto Rico, most don't speak English or celebrate the 4th of July.

They make way more noise on 'Cinco de Mayo' and New Years.

The residents of Puerto Rico are Americans In Name Only, AINOs.

[AuH2ORepublican]

Cinco de Mayo???? Maybe there's a Jose Cuervo promotion or something at bars and Mexican restaurants on May 5, but nobody celebrates it---St. Patrick's Day is a much bigger "holiday" in Puerto Rico than Cinco de Mayo.

And as for the Fourth of July, it's one of only like 5 holidays where all private businesses close in Puerto Rico, and most people go to the beach or the park or else have a backyard barbecue. But thousands of people go to the official Fourth of July activities in which the words of the Founding Fathers are recited, politicians give speeches and people wave flags and dance for hours on end. (Personally, I wouldn't be caught dead in one of those official activities, since it's hot as hell and I don't like large crowds, so I go to my parents' annual barbecue and take a dip in their pool.)

But yes, people make more noise in Puerto Rico on New Year's Eve than on the Fourth of July. Can you name anywhere in America where that isn't the case?