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A War Like No Other: How the Athenians and Spartans Fought the Peloponnesian War
New York Times ^ | October 13, 2005 | William Grimes

Posted on 10/15/2005 4:22:57 PM PDT by Valin

What the First World War was for Europe, the Peloponnesian War was for the ancient Greeks. It was also their Napoleonic Wars and their American Civil War. The protracted, ruinous conflict between Athens and Sparta, which dragged on for nearly 30 years (431 B.C. to 404 B.C.), prefigured, in one way or another, nearly every major conflict to come, right up the present war on terror.

The "war like no other," as Thucydides called it, continues to fascinate because it always seems pertinent, and never more so than in Victor Davis Hanson's highly original, strikingly contemporary retelling of the superpower confrontation he calls "a colossal absurdity."

In his capable hands, the past, more often than not, seems almost painfully present. Thucydides, the great historian of the war, is described as a kind of embedded reporter. The Athenians, relying on local populations under Spartan rule to greet them as liberators, never encountered quite the enthusiasm they anticipated, and the imperial assumptions behind "Athenianism," which Hanson calls "the Western world's first example of globalization," suggest uncomfortable comparisons.

Hanson, whose books on classical warfare include "The Western Way of War" and "The Wars of the Ancient Greeks," does not harp on this theme. He directs most of his attention to the war itself, the way it was fought and the profound changes in methods and psychology that took place over time.

His ingeniously organized narrative proceeds chronologically, but also thematically. The chapter "Disease," for example, focuses on the four-year period after the first Spartan invasions, when plague overtook Athens, crowded with refugees from the countryside, killing off one-fourth to one-third of the population. Hanson explores the military implications of these losses, but also the psychological toll. He suggests that mass death set the stage for the later brutalities of the war.

(Excerpt) Read more at iht.com ...


TOPICS: Books/Literature
KEYWORDS: godsgravesglyphs; history; militaryhistory; thucydides Comment #1 Removed by Moderator

To: Valin
And the relevance to today is what?
2 posted on 10/15/2005 4:25:46 PM PDT by bnelson44 (Proud parent of a tanker!)
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To: bnelson44
And the relevance to today is what?

Those who do not know history are doomed to be ignorant, if they are lucky.

So9

3 posted on 10/15/2005 4:34:58 PM PDT by Servant of the 9 (Trust Me)
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To: Valin

NY Timee? I think I remember that guy. ;-)


4 posted on 10/15/2005 4:36:48 PM PDT by decimon
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To: Servant of the 9
Those who do not know history are doomed to be ignorant, if they are lucky.

LOL!

5 posted on 10/15/2005 4:46:40 PM PDT by bnelson44 (Proud parent of a tanker!)
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To: bnelson44

When I was enrolled in Naval War College, Thucydides' "History of the Peloponnesian Wars" was a major work to be read and discussed for ramifications on modern warfare. Especially the forming, maintenance and strategic value of coalitions, and shifts in the character and goals of the participants....that occur over a protracted conflict (not necessarily 30 years). Some works, and the lessons they can convey about historical "lessons learned", are timeless.


6 posted on 10/15/2005 4:47:35 PM PDT by silverleaf (Fasten your seat belts- it's going to be a BUMPY ride.)
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To: decimon
AAAGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!
I'm going to go stand in the corner now.
7 posted on 10/15/2005 4:48:40 PM PDT by Valin (The right to do something does not mean that doing it is right.)
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To: bnelson44
And the relevance to today is what?

SSDD

8 posted on 10/15/2005 4:54:36 PM PDT by kanawa
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To: bnelson44

Bump


9 posted on 10/15/2005 4:56:45 PM PDT by A. Pole (Lord Palmerston: "Nations had no permanent enemies or allies only permanent interests")
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To: A. Pole
The Peloponnesian Wars were Bush's fault.
10 posted on 10/15/2005 5:03:11 PM PDT by MrEdd
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To: Valin

I can't wait to read this one.


11 posted on 10/15/2005 5:10:50 PM PDT by mainepatsfan
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To: silverleaf

I think the Peloponnesian Wars really are a lesson for our times. For example, the Spartan war effort that finally beat Athens was largely funded by Persia. I think the war was largely a draw until then.

For all that is written about the suffering of the Athenians, Sparta suffered badly as well. The armies were actually well matched, as I recall, but the forces of Athens were spread all over the Agean, the Eastern Med. from Sicily to Cyprus, and the Black Sea. A scattering of forces that was to prove fatal.

Or at least, that's my amateur, studied only for fun, take on the matter.


12 posted on 10/15/2005 5:32:40 PM PDT by jimtorr
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To: MrEdd
The Peloponnesian Wars were Bush's fault.

What about Clinton? It was a long war, enough for several presidents.

13 posted on 10/15/2005 6:51:46 PM PDT by A. Pole (Lord Palmerston: "Nations had no permanent enemies or allies only permanent interests")
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To: blam; FairOpinion; Ernest_at_the_Beach; StayAt HomeMother; 24Karet; 3AngelaD; asp1; ...
To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list. Thanks.
Please FREEPMAIL me if you want on or off the
Gods, Graves, Glyphs PING list or GGG weekly digest
-- Archaeology/Anthropology/Ancient Cultures/Artifacts/Antiquities, etc.
Gods, Graves, Glyphs (alpha order)

14 posted on 10/15/2005 9:55:40 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Down with Dhimmicrats! I last updated by FR profile on Sunday, August 14, 2005.)
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To: bnelson44

Read a little Thucydides and you will see.

Failing that, read a little of WThucydides ill Durant's commentary on Thucydides.

You don't need to read it all to answer your question.


15 posted on 10/16/2005 4:18:34 AM PDT by bert (K.E. ; N.P . Chicken spit causes flu....... Fox News)
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To: bert

So you would recommend Thucydides rather than VDH? Probably a silly question, but courious to your answer.


16 posted on 10/16/2005 9:04:43 AM PDT by bnelson44 (Proud parent of a tanker!)
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To: bnelson44
recommend Thucydides

Must be a reason that name keeps coming up and has been coming up all through history. Might be something to it.

17 posted on 10/16/2005 9:34:17 AM PDT by RightWhale (Repeal the law of the excluded middle)
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To: bnelson44

Thucydides comes pretty cheap in paper back.

I also referenced Will Durant. His "The Life Of Greece" offers insight to the times and contrast to the present and is easy, already digested by his great historian mind. One of the reasons I like Newt the history prof/congressman is because he references Will Durant.

I have never read any thing of VDH except his extensive columns available here on FR.


18 posted on 10/16/2005 12:18:02 PM PDT by bert (K.E. ; N.P . Chicken spit causes flu....... Fox News)
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To: bnelson44
I think it might mean that their Vietnam analogies aren't getting enough traction so they are looking elsewhere.
19 posted on 10/16/2005 12:25:35 PM PDT by Question_Assumptions
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To: bnelson44

Most interesting.


20 posted on 10/16/2005 1:20:02 PM PDT by Ciexyz (Let us always remember, the Lord is in control.)
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