New M1 Carbine

[95ssimpala]

Has anyone shot the Auto-ordinance M1 carbine? I want a shooter more than a collector’s item and a grand for a Fulton Armory rebuild is a little much. Shopping around most of the decent GI carbine I’ve seen run around the same price as a new one. I’ve read mixed reviews of other Auto-ordinance products before they were taken over by Khar and none on the carbine. I would like to know about accuracy, reliability, and GI parts interchangeability.

[hiredhand]

Here's the basic scoop on balistics for the .30 carbine cartrige.

The only load data I could scratch up was from an older (Speer #10) reloading manual, and the only projectiles they list are 110gr of various configurations...(round nose, FMJ, and Speer Varminteer - a jacketed hollow point). Sectional density only varies slightly between all the projectiles.

Max velocity is JUST under 2000FPS on all load tables in this manual. Ballistic coefficients are LOW! Between .124 and .144!

So...having a fondness for punching holes in "things" at a bit of a distance....let's look at just what this little beasty can do for us. :-)

I'll use the highest BC which is .144 for the round nose (soft tip). It also has a slightly higher sectional density of .166.

The max load for this projectile using 15 gr of "296" (WHATEVER type of propellant that is!), is 1945FPS.

According to the handy-dandy charts in the back of my book...This load will cause the 110 gr projectile to impart 8.88 Ft lb per grain at muzzle. At 250 yards, this drops to 2.37 Ft lb per grain. Also, IF the weapon is zeroed in at 50 yards, it will drop 30.6" below LOS at 250 yards.

So far, this is sounding a LOT like a pistol round...figuratively speaking.

Without copying all the techo-garble I've been perusing through, the .357 Magnum cartridge using a 110gr JHP is just a tad behind the .30 Carbine ballistically speaking.

I think that for in terms of versatility, I'd go with the .357. For starters, you can ALWAYS shoot regular ole .38SPL out of it. Ruger made one model (can't remember it off the top) that had a cylinder for 9mm too!

Now...I'm going to jump to the .223 Rem (5.56MM NATO) only because I "believe" (IMHO) that the experience of shooting one is very similar to the M-1. Before even going into the ballistics, lets not forget that .223 ammo is PLENTIFUL! I don't think the same can be said for .30 Carbine. .30 Carbine is also a little more expensive. Magazines for most ARs come in everything from 5rd, up to 200rd (a drum mag...I might be a little off on capacity on it though). Mostly though (as we all know), most AR mags are 30 rd. I've been poking around the net looking for different sized M-1 mags, and it seems to be 15 rd and that's about it. I didn't spend a long time looking though, so it won't surprise me if somebody finds something strange like a 200 rd drum mag. :-)

Now..as for the .223...

Data for the 55gr FMJ is telling me that this projectile in front of 26.5gr of IMR 4320 will exit muzzle at a tad over 3000FPS (MID RANGE load data...under MAX though). There's a BIG difference in ballistic coefficients between spitzer and FMJ though! Spitzer is .255. FMJ is .189! I'll use FMJ anyway.

So again...according to the charts, this .223 Rem casing, firing a 55gr FMJ round produces 18.67 Ft Lb per gr of torque at muzzle. At 250 yards, it drops to 7.11 Ft Lbs. Zeroed in at 50 yards, this particular load will cause the projectile to drop 9.2" below line of sight.

I hate to say this...but unless I had an EXTREME fondness for this particular rifle (which seems to me that it fires a handgun cartridge), I'd go with a decent AR. Especially for the price of this thing!

...and if I were looking for something to poke holes in potentially dangerous "targets" I DEFINITELY wouldn't choose this particular weapon/cartridge combo. I'd stick with a short AR.

...and lastly. The last time I had to shoot an M-1 Carbine with no "ears" on, my ears rang for a week! The last time I had to shoot an AR with no hearing protection, it didn't bother me much. I think the M-1 is a LOT louder.

[hiredhand]

Yes...the pricetag is most definitely HIGH on those "sim" type paintball guns. I built one which is quite nice on a Tippmann A-5 for about $325.00, and it looks practically identical to an M-4. If you're interested, ping me via FreepMail and I'll tell you how I did it. :-)

For the record....YES... the PB gun is a riot when zapping unwanted critters out of the yard! :-)

[hiredhand]

"mousegun""?! HA! HA! HA! That's good! I'm pretty sure that NIJ Threat Level IIA vests will protect against the .30 Carbine!

Ah yes! The M1A! ...that shorty is NICE! I'm with you. I'd avoid the .30 Carbine. In fact, I think I remember reading that Gen. Julian Hatcher (US Army Ordinance Directory back in the early 40's) saying BAD things about it....even back then!

[ExSoldier]

Georgie Patton said B-A-D things about the carbine even as he was praising the M1 Garand to the heavens as the greatest implement of battle ever devised. I think he SPIT when he spoke of the carbine.

[Darksheare]

I just had to drop offline for a bit, had t-storms pop up and rumble through a few minutes ago.

LOL!!

[hiredhand]

Oh! I know that drill WELL! I've got a full site here in my house and I've had EVERYTHING blown up once, and major damage to most components one other time!

I tell ya...about the PB gun and unwanted critters. There's been this stray cat who won't come when called. I'm NOT very popular for zapping things like him with my .243, but that's what I usually do. Anyway, the past two times we've "scorched his hide", we coordinated the shooter via FRS radios with a paintball gun into a good spot. The spotter in the house was guiding the shooter into position and keeping any eye on the critter. When the shooter was in range, the spotter gave the command and ZAP!. It's a lot more fun than simply obliterating them with the .243. Although, if he keeps hanging around...especially if he starts beating up on my cats....he'll eventually meet his end.

[hiredhand]

I hear ya. I try hard to refrain my own very personal opinion about weaponry, because everybody has a preference. I've heard too many soldiers who had used these things in WW-II and the Korean war who hated them and regarded them as pop guns.

I do know for a fact that there have been semi-auto handguns produced that shoot the .30 Carbine cartridge. I think that says everything that needs to be said about it. :-)

It's a POP GUN.

[Darksheare]

There is a small female bobcat arpund here, but she isn't much of a threat.
What IS a threat to our wimpy indoor outdoor cat is the grey cat owned by the neighbor up the street.
(Female bobcat just looks at NiMH, snorts, and walks away.)

There's some different paintball mixes that smell, and taste, truly disgusting.
The marauding stray may be deterred by grabbing a few of the 'yuck' PB rounds.
(I don't know offhand where top find them though.)

[I got the rope]

I have one too. I agree with you that they tend to jam...I blame the poor quality of the magazines more than anything. Don't load them to capacity...it helps.

I've killed white-tail deer (with one shot)at ranges under a hundred yards. Try that with a M1911.

[hiredhand]

I MEANT to say (and just noticed that I only wrote part of it!), that the .223, 55gr projectile....zeroed at 50 yards, drops 9.2" below LOS at 250 yds.

[Darksheare]

Thanks.

[ExSoldier]

Try that with a M1911.

I could do it. Would it be my first choice? No. But in an emergency I could do it with a .22LR. Heck the greatest of the original Great White Hunters on the African continent in the late 19th century was a guy named Karamojo Bell. He regularly took elephant with a 6mm. That's a .243 folks. Shot 'em right thru the eye everytime. The importance of shot placement is shown once again.

[SWAMPSNIPER]

I shot a possum raiding my trash cans 9 times with a .30 carbine, had to come in the house and grab the old 10/22 to finish the poor little critter off.
The M1 carbine is a cool little rifle, but the cartridge is a joke. It is likely just hot enough to make a big man mad enough to kick your butt.

[hiredhand]

NiMH?! Is that the cat's name?! :-)

OH...let me tell you about "paintball paint in the mouth"! If you have a paintball gun, Walmart stocks something called "Zap". It's truly the most disgusting stuff if you get it in your mouth, and it smells like cheap oil paint if you get it on your clothes! I've been shot in the face mask probably three times in the last 6 months, and only once was with "Zap"....but it was NASTY! ...and it LEFT a bad taste in my mouth for a long time!

I'm told that it's like this because it's a "tournament grade" ball....whatever that means. I'm still relatively new to the sport. Also, it's not supposed to be a particularly high quality paintball. Also, somebody told me it was so thick and nasty because it made it virtually impossible to wipe off of clothing in games like capture the flag where a player has to prove that he/she wasn't hit during a flag capture.

Ah well....Here's the gun I was telling you about. It doesn't have the large hopper on it here, but I reinstalled it because I got TIRED of getting all shot up by teenagers carrying 200 rounds in their hoppers. I'm 41 and they were getting a major kick out of shooting the "old guy". :-)

[Darksheare]

Yup, the cat is named 'NiMH' mainly because if we let him 'recharge' for a few minutes he'll want to go back out and decimate the local vole population.


That's a pretty impressive paintball gun.
"Zap", heard that stuff was gross.
Thanks for the confirmation on it.
*YUG!*

[hiredhand]

Ah yes...6mm...a.k.a. .243. We've got a Rem M-700 here that I did VERY minor work on. Nothing that you couldn't do in the kitchen. Mainly, we took almost ALL of the overtravel out of the trigger. The M-700 trigger is very adjustable. The trigger weight was reduced to "about" 2 lbs, and we reduced the length of travel to (I "think") about .015" before sear disengages.

Then, we ground the bbl beds out of the stock, and put a "credit card shim" under the main bolt that holds the receiver to the stock. You have to drill a hole in the card, and trim it up nicely, but it lifts the bbl out of the stock just "enough". After this...we stuck some decent optics on it, and were VERY careful with handloads. Now the rifle shoots .3" groups at 300 yards...so long as there is no wind. :-) Here's a picture of it! :-)



Sorry it's a little hard to tell what it is. Ah...you seen on M-700, ya seen em all. :-)

[struwwelpeter]

[hiredhand]

So WHAT do you actually call that cat? "Nim" for short? That's funny! She sounds like a really cool kitty!

I think I'd leave the Bobcat alone unless she was doing damage. They're amazing animals!

Thanks...I like that paintball gun a LOT! I've gotten a LOT of joy out it too. I was going to buy an AimPoint Comp-ML, for one of my rifles, but decided instead to get some gear and play paintball with the kids. It was a good choice. :-)

I'll tell ya this though...it's a bit of a system shock the first couple of times you get chased down by a bunch of teen aged boys...."shot to death"...and left behind while they hunt down the rest of your team. :-) It doesn't happen as often as it used to, but it took me a month to get to the point physically where I could keep up with them. :-)

[hiredhand]

Wow...those are some cool G-suits!

Being the proud builder/owner of one, one thing comes to mind immediately...

SWEAT!

:-)

Now those guys at the end of the line....what are those suits made of? Any idea?

[struwwelpeter]

I don't know. I think they might be natural materials.