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Need Help for a Debate: Resolved, Roper v. Simmons be overturned (I'm Con) unfortunatley

Posted on 04/12/2005 6:15:32 PM PDT by el_doctor2

I have a debate soon, ive been assigned the Con side, are there any anti-death penalty supporters on FR...i know there must be a few. And if you arent , do you know the talking points for that side?


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KEYWORDS: newbie; ropervsimmons
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1 posted on 04/12/2005 6:15:32 PM PDT by el_doctor2
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To: el_doctor2
Go to Google and put in "Debate on Death Penalty." Lots of threads come up. I don't know how good any of them are though. You will have to do the reading. :-)
2 posted on 04/12/2005 6:19:56 PM PDT by Spunky ("Everyone has a freedom of choice, but not of consequences.")
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To: el_doctor2

I'm not anti-death penalty, but I know one of the talking points is that you can NEVER really know if a suspect is guilty unless you have a film or videotape of the actual crime. Even confessions have turned out to be false.


3 posted on 04/12/2005 6:20:29 PM PDT by FreeKeys ("Most of the 40-odd wars going...right now are being fought in the name of religion." - Paul Harvey)
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To: el_doctor2

This is exactly why I couldn't do debate. I couldn't drop my beliefs and argue something that is 180 degrees out of phase with who I am. That being said, o0ne of the arguments the pro-let the murderers live side uses is that it is ultimately more costly to put someone to death than to just have life sentences. Don't know the veracity of that claim, though.


4 posted on 04/12/2005 6:22:03 PM PDT by WinOne4TheGipper (What're you looking at?)
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To: el_doctor2

I think your best bet is to focus on the idea that due to diminished culpability (because of youth), retribution does not provide sufficient justification of the DP. As an example: we don't allow juveniles to make the momentous (and admirable) decision to enlist in the Armed Forces without parental permission. Thus, the U.S. Congress has made a policy decision that juveniles do not have the mental capacity to make such important decisions. The same can be argued about murder: do juveniles (in general) have sufficient mental capacity to form the requisite intent to commit murder? If the answer is no, then retribution (the primary goal of punishment) is less important because the juvenile could not form the level of intent that we as a society seek to punish.


5 posted on 04/12/2005 6:22:25 PM PDT by hispanichoosier
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To: el_doctor2
Oh, you know the standard talking points. It's not a deterrent, it costs more to kill them than it does to keep them in prison, what if an innocent person is executed, it's cruel and unusual, it's just revenge, blah blah blah.

My sister is anti-death penalty. I hear it all the time. I still insist that it is a rather effective deterrent, because the person who is executed is deterred from ever committing another crime again.

Sometimes karma and natural selection just aren't thorough enough.
6 posted on 04/12/2005 6:23:01 PM PDT by teenyelliott (Soylent green is made of liberals...)
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To: el_doctor2

I support the death penalty, but I can throw you a few of their arguments


1. It's cruel.

2. Europeans don't like it, and as their history over the last century shows them to be far more civilized than us, we should follow their lead.

3. Non-whites, or possibly the killers of whites as opposed to the killers of non-whites, are more likely to get fried. They're usually a little confused in this area.

4. The inevitable fact is that someday, if we haven't already done it recently, we will execute an innocent person. Therefore we shouldn't execute anyone.

5. It's cruel, and Europeans don't like it.

I won't comment on the logical content of most of these arguments. It's just too easy.


7 posted on 04/12/2005 6:23:23 PM PDT by Restorer
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To: WinOne4TheGipper
I couldn't drop my beliefs and argue something that is 180 degrees out of phase with who I am.

People often say that, but it's incredibly educational to argue the other side. You'll understand the side you support even better.

8 posted on 04/12/2005 6:23:40 PM PDT by Strategerist
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To: teenyelliott

Ted Bundy hasn't killed any 12-year olds recently.


9 posted on 04/12/2005 6:24:43 PM PDT by Restorer
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To: teenyelliott
I still insist that it is a rather effective deterrent

The above is probably the weakest of all the pro-death penalty arguments. The type of people typically being executed are the sort who rarely think more than 5 minutes ahead. It's really unlikely there's any sort of rational balancing of the punishments vs. the rewards of whatever murder they're committing.

10 posted on 04/12/2005 6:25:54 PM PDT by Strategerist
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To: el_doctor2
Another tact is to research the issue of how much MORE it costs taxpayers to fund lawyers that file appeal after appeal (that death row inmates are granted by law) than than it would cost to simply house them until their natural death.

I'm all for the fiscal, man.

11 posted on 04/12/2005 6:26:47 PM PDT by PLK
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To: Restorer
Ted Bundy hasn't killed any 12-year olds recently.

The anti-death penalty side can simply be in favor of life sentences without parole which also prevents further murders; to which the counter-argument is the microscopic chance of escape (of which Bundy is an example, but it wasn't from an actual Max security prison).

12 posted on 04/12/2005 6:27:33 PM PDT by Strategerist
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To: el_doctor2
I don't think the arguments are generally honest ones. The debate talks around the issue. The most popular argument against using capital punishment right now is the "innocence" argument: Even if only one in a thousand executed criminals proves to be innocent, we should spare all the lives rather than risk executing that one innocent person. It has great popular appeal. But it often relies on questionable evidence that some convicted criminals have been "innocent" (i.e., not involved in the crime) in the classic sense. Not only that, but it is often put forward by people who really do not accept the notion of moral responsibility at all, so that (in their thinking) all of us are "innocent" (of whatever we have chosen to do) in the sense that we should not have to face the consequences of our actions.

I say that as a firm opponent of the death penalty, by the way, an activist against it, in fact. But the only argument I consider valid is the "reverence for life womb to tomb" argument advanced by Christian thinkers like the late pope. That is not an argument with much appeal in the secular world.

13 posted on 04/12/2005 6:30:36 PM PDT by madprof98
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To: el_doctor2

Go to

prisontalk.com

visit the Capital Punishment forum


14 posted on 04/12/2005 6:31:58 PM PDT by Recall
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To: madprof98
But it often relies on questionable evidence that some convicted criminals have been "innocent" (i.e., not involved in the crime)

There's really enormous amounts of very solid evidence that a substantial number of convicted criminals have been fully and completely innocent.

15 posted on 04/12/2005 6:32:52 PM PDT by Strategerist
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To: el_doctor2
Mr. Roper has no idea what he's doing!

16 posted on 04/12/2005 6:32:58 PM PDT by struggle ((The struggle continues))
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To: el_doctor2
Agree with the pro side,agree with every point,and end with this,"but where will this culture of death end,with the death of an innocent women,like Terri Schiavo?"

How the hell did you get roped into the con side?

17 posted on 04/12/2005 6:34:02 PM PDT by mdittmar (May God watch over those who serve,and have served, to keep us free.)
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To: hispanichoosier

You forgot the most important point: if we execute murdering sons-a-B*&^%es for murders they commit before turning 18, the French might be inclined to think less of us than they already do.

Ditto Italian Communists and British Labour Party members.

And we wouldn't want that.


18 posted on 04/12/2005 6:34:13 PM PDT by John Valentine
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To: el_doctor2
I had a friend who was opposed to the death penalty because he didn't trust the government with the power of life or death.

My personal view is that nobody who had the death penalty carried out on them has ever committed another crime.
19 posted on 04/12/2005 6:34:44 PM PDT by wolfpat (Dum vivimus, vivamus)
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To: Strategerist
The anti-death penalty side can simply be in favor of life sentences without parole which also prevents further murders; to which the counter-argument is the microscopic chance of escape (of which Bundy is an example, but it wasn't from an actual Max security prison).

A better counter-argument, IMO, is that once the death penalty is abolished, the left will turn its sights on life without parole sentences as being "cruel and unusual," and then of course they will push for giving these people parole. I'd say it's much more likely a "life without parole" felon would be paroled than he'd be likely to escape.

20 posted on 04/12/2005 6:35:10 PM PDT by CFC__VRWC (Ted Kennedy and the New York Times do NOT select our next Pope.)
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