Posted on 01/21/2005 1:54:31 PM PST by LauraleeBraswell
Does anyone know about the tragety of Waco Texas? If and How were Janet Reno and President Bill Clinton involved and what did they do?
Your thread, works for me. I just want you to have the real facts of what happened. I had no intention of starting a flame war.
I had no idea it was such a sensitive topic, really. Why is it?
KMA little left wingy baby. Are You sure You are posting in the proper forum?
The Davidians were off base, for sure, but, the gubmint was further off base on this call. I don't suspect You are a Troll, maybe You are a new and unique critter. I sure hope so, maybe someone will create a forum where You fit. I hope You can find it, and go away!
You can see what has happened here already with a little more than 50+ posts.
People have very strong feelings about this incident on both ends of the spectrum. Pro gov't and against what happened.
If you have time, look up as much as you can that's available on the Internet and you will still never be sure what happened. The only thing for sure is Janet Reno screwed up as she usually did. How much they were able to cover up is hard to define. It didn't have to happen the way it did which is really the bottom line.
A bunch of goofballs thought a paranoid dolt named David "Koresh" was a reincarnation of Christ...
(they) hunkered down and bunkered up, and refused to let authorities arrest Koresh for some weapons charges....
Pot shots fired back and forth....
Bill and Reno gave the go-ahead to gas them after 50(?) or so days in hopes they'd give up....
Koresh thought it was time for the armageddon blues so he and his idiot followers set fire to their compound, burning itself and themselves up....
Some died of inhalation, some smothered, some of gunshot wounds....
Which of the above is not a fact? Did not happen?
You seem to have left out, again, the initial, botched before it began, assault by the ATF.
True- A bunch of goofballs thought a paranoid dolt named David "Koresh" was a reincarnation of Christ...
False- they were attacked at their home. All that was needed was to wait for Koresh to go to town and then arrest him.(they) hunkered down and bunkered up, and refused to let authorities arrest Koresh for some weapons charges....
False- the BATF rolls up with a cattle trailer full of agents and start blasting away FIRST, the Davidians were defending themselves.Pot shots fired back and forth....
True and False- yes the order was given but the plan was to leave no survivors and destroy the evidence that would prove the fedscum screwed-upBill and Reno gave the go-ahead to gas them after 50(?) or so days in hopes they'd give up....
False- the fedscum pumped in CS gas and then tossed in an incendiary device igniteing the place.Koresh thought it was time for the armageddon blues so he and his idiot followers set fire to their compound, burning itself and themselves up....
True-Some died of inhalation, some smothered, some of gunshot wounds....
Which of the above is not a fact? Did not happen?
Thank You
Welcome. As WCG noted, feelings run pretty high on this subject, along with my blood pressure. The feds never showed one ounce of common sense in this case and then tried to cover it all up, with the help of the media. Ruby Ridge revisited on a much larger scale.
Untrue. The ATF agents who died where shot with federal 9mm ammo.
Koresh thought it was time for the armageddon blues so he and his idiot followers set fire to their compound, burning itself and themselves up....
The FBI says the DB set fire, but this was never proven because the FBI bulldozed the site immediately following the fire.
Some died of inhalation, some smothered, some of gunshot wounds....
Lies by omission.
The ME who performed the autopsies determined the cause of deaths, but never the manner of deaths. Not a single bullet was recovered from the bodies of those who reportedly died of gunshot wounds on April 19. Those who were shot on Feb. 27 and buried still had the bullets in their bodies. (which matched the type and caliber of ATF gunshot wound victims. Half of those who supposedly died of gunshot wounds received at the hands of their fellow victims after enduring a day-long assault of CS gas had no traces of the metabolized methylene chloride (methylene chloride is the liquid carrier used to suspend the CS particles in preparation for use and when metabolized by the body mimics carbon monoxide poisioning) in their blood streams. No gas masks were found in the room with the bodies. The list goes on and on.
The FBI claims that the BD shot each other, but never traced the bullets to a DB-owned firearm. (because there were no bullets recovered from the bodies)
The ATF claimed that the BD were manufacturing automatic weapons, but at the end of the congressional hearings the FBI was to deliver the BD weapons to Failure Analysis, Inc. for testing to determine if the supposedly BD-modified weapons were modified by the BD and whether they were modified before or after the fire. When the time came to deliver the weapons for testing, the FBI claimed that the testing by an outside agency was unnecessary and refused to release the weapons.
The ATF claimed that DK was a child molester and was providing firearms training to the BD. And just who did the ATF rely on for this 'eyewitness' testimony which was later used as the basis for the original arrest warrant? Mark Breault, a blind man.
Lauralee, if you're interested in more information about the Waco assault, I'd suggest starting on my home page: Ol' Dan Tucker's Place on the Digital Dirt Road then progress onto Carol Valentine's Waco Holocaust Electronic Museum and read the autopsy reports.
Of all the evidence presented in the recent Waco murder trial, the one piece of evidence ignored by everyone in the trial was the autopsy reports. How anyone can discuss a murder and not explore the autopsies of the victims is beyond me, but that's exactly what happened.
Good luck!
Same feelings here.
Thanks, some more info I had not seen before.
False- they were attacked at their home.
Their home was a compound. It is described so by pretty much everybody, including former members of the group. There was the Church, 3(?) wooden buildings, and a buried bunker where they stored supplies, and later slept.
All that was needed was to wait for Koresh to go to town and then arrest him.
They could have. But the fact remains, the BATF tried to arrest him at the compound. By arresting him there, instead of in town, they would have the ability to search for other weapons and/or contraband.
False- the BATF rolls up with a cattle trailer full of agents and start blasting away FIRST, the Davidians were defending themselves.
So, there was a gun battle, both sides shooting at one another. I didn't say Koresh's people fired first. I didn't know who did. AFter the initial assault, throughout the 51 days both sides fired shots back and forth.
True and False- yes the order was given but the plan was to leave no survivors and destroy the evidence that would prove the fedscum screwed-up
Please provide your documentation they planned to leave no survivors. Was it a written plan or oral?
Bill and Reno gave the go-ahead to gas them after 50(?) or so days in hopes they'd give up....
False- the fedscum pumped in CS gas....
So you agree, Bill and Reno gave the go ahead to use gas
....and then tossed in an incendiary device igniteing the place.
Whether the FBI fired the place or koresh's followers ignited it is still very much at question. So much of the evidence at the compound was destroyed after the fire and before proper forensic evidence was gathered. There were tapes introduced at the trial that Koresh's people coordinated their fires. (I personally think both sides deliberately started fires; feds in hope to smoke/scare them out, and Koresh's folks to avoid capture.)
Koresh thought it was time for the armageddon blues so he and his idiot followers set fire to their compound, burning itself and themselves up....
The FBI says the DB set fire, but this was never proven because the FBI bulldozed the site immediately following the fire.
Yup. I was mighty critical of that too. They also said they had tapes of BDs setting the fires, but it was hard to make out. These people were like the followers of Jim Jones, and were just as likely to "drink the koolaid" (set fires).
Some died of inhalation, some smothered, some of gunshot wounds....
Lies by omission.
The beginning of my first statement said "In a nutshell" which any reasonable person would expect means there are a lot more facts not included for brevity's sake.
Have a good weekend!
Wow, Lauralee, your post has stirred up some people! Please stick around.
OK, more Waco stuff. Before BATF went ahead, they had to have a search warrant to look for the illegal weapons.
Koresh and his crew had been running a gun show sales operation (called either *K Branch Davidians or Mag_Bag), I don't know if you have many where you are but they are a way of life for some people. So they had lots of surplus guns, cut rate ammo, doodads like inert training grenades, and maintenance kits for AR-15 type rifles, pretty standard stuff for a gun show. You rent a table and display your Moisin-Nagant rifles, cleaning kits, and so forth. The maintenance kit for ARs was called an "E-2 Replacement Kit" and it had a set of springs, pins, cotter pins, and the barrel and parts that hold the barrel. Not illegal, not dangerous, and you don't need a license to own one or sell one.
So the BATF, the feds in charge of firearms regulations, wrote up a search warrant that spoke ominously of grenades, illegal machine guns. It was claimed that they had everything needed to make an M16 machinegun except the full auto reciever, which anyone who owns a legal AR15 has- the full auto lower reciever is the federally regulated one you need a licence for, so merely owning an upper is not a crime. The maintenance kits they had for sale at gun shows were called Machinegun E2 Kits by the ATF in the warrant.
(Also on June 8,1992, I interviewed Cynthia Alco, Owner/Manager, Nesard Gun Parts Company, Barrington, Illinois, and learned from her that in May of 1992, her company shipped to the "Mag-Bag", two (2) M-16 machinegun car kits and two (2) M-16 machinegun E2 kits. These kits contain all the parts of an M-16 machinegun, except for the lower receiver unit which is the "firearm" by lawful definition.)
and it was implied that they could be used to convert an AR15 into a machinegun. The warrant also said thet they had a full auto lower reciever for an AK47, which has a one piece reciever.
The judge who signed this warrant kkew less about firearms than the BATF Government Expert in Firearms did. So based on this fraudulent inaccurate document, the BATF loaded a cattle truck with black-clad commandos armed with H&K MP5 submachineguns, M16 rifles, and so on. They drove up to the door, jumped out, and tried to storm the house, which we all call now "the compound".
They also had:
one hundred four (104), AR-15/M-16, upper receiver groups with barels. Eight thousand, one hundred (8,100) rounds of 9mm and .223 caliber ammunition for AR-15/M-16. Twenty (20), one hundred round capacity drum magazines for AK-47 rifles. Two hundred sixty (260), M-16/AR-15 magazines. Thirty (30) M-14 magazines. Two (2) M-16 E2 kits. Two (2) M-16 car kits. One M-76 grenade launcher. Two hundred (200) M-31, practice rifle grenades. Four (4) M-16 parts set Kits "A". Two (2) flare launchers Two cases, (approximately 50) inert practice hand grenades. 40-50 pounds of black gun powder. Thirty (30) pounds of Potassium Nitrate. Five (5) pounds of Magnesium metal powder. One pound of Igniter cord. ( A class C explosive) Ninety-one (91) AR/15 lower receiver units. Twenty-six (26) various calibers and brands of hand guns and long guns. 90 pounds of aluminum metal powder. 30-40 cardboard tubes.
none of which is illegal nor unusual to find at a gun show (if you have never been to one you should go, there's lots of stuff other than guns and ammo to get, and some have live entertainment and good food if you like chili). In many states making your own pyrotechnics is not illegal, so you can buy cardboard tubes, potassium nitrate, and aluminum dust.
http://i2i.org/SuptDocs/Waco/warrant.htm
http://www.jaedworks.com/shoebox/waco.html
http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/director_staff/public_information/branch_davidian/to%20casteel%20090999.pdf
Page ten describes an odd projectile.
You left out the now proven fact that someone, FBI, Delta Force, or BATF, was firing fully automatic weapons at people attempting to leave the burning building, forcing them back into the flames. The FBI's own Foward Looking Infra-Red (FLIR) camera, mounted on an aircraft circling the Waco compound caught all of this on tape, including snipers being released from the tanks, taking up offensive positions, the muzzle flash of their assault weapons as they fired at fleeing Branch Davidians.
The FBI claimed the regular flashing (at the exact rate of fire of the automatic weapons implicated) was mere glint from the sun reflecting on shiny objects on the ground, ignoring the physics of how these reflective objects seemed to reflect the sun to the aircraft, no matter WHERE the aircraft was in relationship to object and sun. The world's foremost expert on FLIR interpretation, Carlos Ghigliotti, was asked to look at the tapes and declared them "automatic gunfire" but his report was never produced as he was found suspiciously dead at his equipment a week later.
Check out the FLIR tape information for yourself: WACO FLIR
Check out the links on the FLIR... and the machine gunning of the Branch Davidians attempting to flee the burning building in the post above.
I would also recommend buying or renting the DVD "Waco: Rules Of Engagement", Lauralee. The CBS "Rathergate" Whitewash pales in comparison.
The BATF were out-gunned and out-generaled in the initial Waco assault. While the Clinton adminiatration grossly vioalted the Posse Commitatus Staute and committed Mass Murder on American soil.
Jack.
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