Posted on 10/02/2004 3:48:27 PM PDT by Quix
QX NOTE: Since mentioning the below in a very sparse thread, a well known FREEPER has reported a similar dream. Another FREEPER, who probably knows more than many of the rest of us put togehter, said it was . . . my words . . . compatible with other . . . data.
If you FREEPMAIL them, please let me know if I can post them anonymously on this thread. Blessings, QX
---------------------
The AP List
October 2, 2004
Meri Burlingame: Moderator
Even as many had dreams indicating in July and August that September would be a month of storms, others have had dreams saying that October would be a month of terrorism. May we be found standing in the breach as the Lord would direct us.
Meri
[QX NOTE: Meri is a long term, close friend and Sister in The Lord].
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tracey DesLauriers
September 4. 2004 5:03am.........had this dream three times...
I am standing outside, and approximately about 20 feet away from me, I see what looks like a big globe of the world.
As I begin to walk towards it, I am then lifted up far above this globe, and can now look down , and see the whole universe.
As I look far over towards the left, I see a darkening in the sky. In a blink of an eye, it strikes me that it has the resemblance of New York…the stock exchange buildings and business area. I then become aware, that as this situation is occurring, that in other parts of the world, there seem to be simultaneous attacks.
Although, I am not certain, of the exact places these attacks are also occurring, I do notice, that oil refineries, are being blown up, and I notice there seems to be those of Arabic descent as well as what appears to be Iraq, is now once again, under heavy attack, with air attacks, and ground forces, attacking just as they did in the beginning of the war…many lives are lost.
As this takes place, I look to my right, and see more destruction, and terror and death.
As I awoke, I was in tears, and kept hearing "Oct will be a significant month, Winds Of Change…Watch and Pray"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Meri Burlingame
AP List Moderator
-------------------------------------------
TRUMPET WIND MINISTRIES PROPHETIC EMAIL LIST
Hosted by Pam Clark
P. O. Box 21 ~ Millers Creek, NC 28651
Email: Trumpet-Wind-List@prophetic.net
To Subscribe: http://www.trumpetwindlist.prophetic.net
PROPHECIES FROM GODSPEAK - www.GodSpeak.org
MY WORDS
by Teresa Seputis (teresa@godspeak.org)
My words are words of power and of life. My words are words of encouragement. The enemy desires for your heart to be heavy and full of fear. I desire for your joy to be full and for you to be full of faith. And the personal and corporate words that I release through My servants, the prophets, are to be words of life and encouragement. My words are words of liberty and the setting free of those who Satan holds in captivity. My words are words of hope and of a future.
There are types of false prophesy running amuck in the church today, and this is a cause of sorrow and anger for Me. There are those who speak and release words of condemnation because they speak from a critical and judgmental spirit. They release words that have no hope, that offer no road of repentance and restitution. That is not My way, for I came that all men might have life, that they might believe and repent and be saved. I have died that man may have life. Therefore, I do not speak words of destruction and condemnation and judgment over whole nations -- I speak words of invitation and words of life, desiring that they might turn to Me and be saved.
There is not a nation on the face of this earth that is so holy before Me to the point where there is no room for correction or rebuke. But this is not yet the season where man has been sealed in his sin, the mark of the anti-christ has not been taken and very few are reprobate in their evil ways and unable to repent. So the words that I release to nations are words of invitation and words of hope. For I desire that all men would turn from their sin and run to Me that they may be saved. I offer them a hope and a future.
There is another type of false prophesy going forth that says that man may live for themselves and their own plans, that they can seek material gain and wealth and comfort, so long as they do right and attend My house of worship. Child of Mine, this is fallacy. I require all of you and I require a place of absolute lordship in your life. I expect you to obey Me because you love Me. I expect you to follow the example I laid forth when I walked on this earth as a man -- even as I saw what the Father was doing and did only that, so you are to see what I am doing and do only that. You are to lay down your agendas and your priorities to embrace and obey Mine. I must be Lord and you must have a heart to obey Me and you must do whatever I tell you to do. If you are called by My name, you are to be My servant.
I do not release the prophetic to promise you a bigger house or a more expensive car, I release the prophetic to build you up in kingdom things, to cause your faith to grow, to make your heart pure before Me. A form of materialism has crept into the prophetic, but that is not of Me. It is true that I am a rewarder of My faithful servants. There are times when My rewards are material. But the rewards I most often release are joy and victory and power and anointing upon a person's life, peace in their hearts and favor with others. I desire to bring you to maturity in Me, not to make you fat and comfortable and lazy in this life.
Do not misunderstand, there are those servants of Mine that I prosper materially for My kingdom purposes -- ones that I have called to be apostles and pastors and evangelists in the business world, ones that I have prospered materially that they might be positioned to be My witnesses. These ones are not distracted by the material gain, rather they are focused on My kingdom purposes and they look to Me and they take their direction from Me. I am not saying that you cannot be a Christian and be successful by the world's standards. Rather I am saying that your motivations must be kingdom motivations. You must seek the true riches of My kingdom and not the material riches of this kingdom. Your heart and motivation must be to serve and obey Me, not to increase your material possessions and your place of prominence and status among men.
So, you ask, what type of words am I releasing in this day and season? I am releasing words of life. I am releasing words that build up My body that each member may come to the full stature of maturity in Me. I am releasing words of hope and words of comfort. I am releasing words of vision. I desire that each of My servants knows the vision and calling that I have placed before them that they might walk in it. I am prophetically calling forth giftings that I have placed within My servants. And I am releasing anointings upon them that they might do My kingdom business and accomplish My kingdom purposes. I am calling My people to deeper levels of commitment and intimacy with Me, and I am empowering them to walk in it. I am releasing words of healing and words of restoration. I am releasing words of edification and exhortation and comfort to men, that the church might be built up and that the lost might be saved.
RELEASERS OF LIFE
by James Donovan (JDono78832@aol.com)
This is the day, time and season for My servants, the prophets, flow in My anointing. I have called you to speak forth My oracles and be releasers of My spirit on this earth.
As you flow in My anointing My boldness you shall see My people set free to flow in My anointing, My boldness, My authority, I am leading My people to strengthen and encourage by My words of Life. I am the way, the truth, the life as My people flow in Me. They shall arise and be free to worship Me. They shall have freedom and liberty in their spirit man. So arise and flow in My anointing, My liberty, My freedom and the leading of My voice and you shall see the captives set free. You shall see mountains of doubt and sorrow and hopelessness disappear. You shall see a abundance of My rain, My glory releasing the captives as you are obedient to My voice.
So arise and go forth be bearers of My good news, release the prisoners to flow in Me. Arise and be releasers of truth and life for those in darkness. You shall see My light reign over darkness.
WORDS OF FIRE
by Jane Larsen (jlarsen65@hotmail.com)
Open your mouth and speak for I will bless the words of your mouth and you will speak with words of fire. Words that will burn down the threats of the enemy, that will burn down the strongholds and the places he has stolen from My people. Words that will smolder the darts of the enemy. I will bless the thoughts of your mind and fill you with wisdom in all things, so that you know the way to go and you go that way.
Speak and see. It is not only you that I bless, but all those that surround My throne. Words of fire with power will come forth and you shall speak in victory. Remember the power of My word. Remember that in the beginning I saw darkness yet I spoke light. And there was light. Words of power and words of healing are coming from you. Speak them out loud and do not flee, for My strength is within you, My hand guides you.
A TIME OF PREPARATION
by Shirley Craft (sjcraft@truevine.net)
For those who have felt they have been sitting on the shelf, feeling isolated, useless and forgotten and even may feel disoriented--I say "NOT SO"! This has been a time of seasoning, a time of preparation, a time of learning to wait on Me, increasing in faith, patience and endurance.
This has been a time of hiddeness, a time of reflection, a time of testing, a time of letting go, a time of change. This past season has been hard for many of My people. Many felt like this wilderness season would never end. But I say 'The time for moving out of this place is now.' It has been a time of many consecutive and simultaneous changes -- some of which have been painful but necessary.
It has been a time of "DO" Season, a time of "DUE" Season and now it is time for "DEW" Season. The "DO" is our cooperation with God. The "DUE" is what we owe God -- our love, affections, loyalty and allegiance to Him and to change as much as is required -- which is our whole duty. The "DEW" is the Holy Spirit being poured into our lives. To each one the "Do", "Due" and "Dew" will take on different meanings, different positions and transitions, and different anointings. However, each one will fit perfectly with each other in the tapestry of God's kingdom and the battle at hand in finishing the gospel commission.
Don't get distracted by what is occurring around you. Stay focused, stay alert, stay close to Me, put on the whole armor of God, and stay in My word. Seek Me more then ever before; the enemy has planned many snares in this next season.
Get ready to be thrust out on the front lines. This is your time. No more delays -- it is time to BREAK THROUGH! I Am right beside you to empower you, but only you can break through. I open the door to your destiny but you must walk through and take your position.
TRUST IS NOT AN EMOTION
by Teresa Seputis (Teresa@godspeak.org)
Child of Mine, I am asking you to trust Me and I expect you to place your trust fully and squarely in Me. Many of My children do not understand what trust is. Trust is not an emotion. Yes, it is true that I give you My Spirit of Peace and I desire to impart into you the peace that passes all understanding -- if you are willing to receive that from Me. But I expect you to trust Me whether or not you feel My peace in a given situation.
Child of Mine, trust is doing what I command you to do no matter what the circumstances around you may look like. Trust is not the certainty that I will, or will not, do a certain thing. Trust is obeying what you know I want you to do because you know I want you to do it. Trust is not a certainty that things will turn out a certain way, but it is a certainty that I am in control and that I will not leave you nor abandon you. Trust is not the absence of problems, but it is the certainty that I will come into your problems and bring My glory into them, just as I have promised that I will do.
Meshach, Shadrach and Abednego trusted Me at great personal cost. They knew that I have commanded them not to bow the knee to any idol. So they refused, even in the face of the threat of death. They did not know what I would do for them, they simply knew that I am the One true God and they must not bow their knee to a false god. I say to you, they were frightened. They feared the pain of the flames consuming their flesh as they were to be cast into the burning fiery furnace. They had no certainty that I would rescue them from death; but they had a certainty that if I allowed them to die, I would meet them on the other side of death because I am their God. They trusted Me in the face of fear, and out of that trust they obeyed. And I say to you that they had great cause to fear, for death by fire is not a pleasant prospect. Yet they were more afraid of disobeying Me than they were afraid of a torturous death, because they had a certainty that I am real. Thus they trusted in Me. And I rewarded their faith by delivering them out of the burning fiery furnace and causing them to be placed in positions of honor and authority.
There have been others who have trusted Me in the face of death who I did not deliver, but who I took home to be with Me. I have many martyrs who have laid down their lives for me, who loved not their own life unto the death. There was Lawrence, a father in the Church, who was slowly roasted to death on a giant grill. He also feared the pain of death, but trusted Me despite this fear. I say to you that My spirit came upon him in the time of death, not to spare his life, but to fill him with My glory and to spare his pain. Though the flames licked his body, he felt no pain, because I was with him. I took him home to be with Me in glory because he had completed all of the tasks that I had assigned him to do. But I say to you, his trust in Me was not in vain. For I am the God of the living, and I caused him to live again with Me in eternity.
Child of Mine, trust is not an emotion. Nor is it knowing what I will do in a given situation. Trust is an assurance that I am good and I am faithful and I am all powerful. Trust is demonstrated by obeying Me and doing what I have commanded you to do despite the circumstances that surround you. Trust is knowing that I am with you despite how things look. And trust is knowing that I will come into your situation and work My glory in it.
Child of Mine, I expect you to trust Me, to obey Me -- because you love Me. But I will help you in this. I will work in your situations to give you experience after experience of My faithfulness, to build and increase the level of your trust. I will allow you to experience My presence with you in difficult situations. And I will cause you to be filled with My spirit, to grow in My truth and to grow in knowledge of Me. Child I give you of Myself and of My Spirit Who dwells within you to empower you.
I do require you to trust Me and to obey Me. I count it as trust when you are uncertain of what I will do on your behalf and you obey anyhow. I count it as trust when you are fearful and trembling, yet you obey Me. I count it as trust when you are not centered in My peace, yet you choose to do things My way instead of looking for a different solution in your own strength. Child of Mine, trust is not an emotion -- it is obedience in the face of adversity.
Trust Me, child, for I am faithful.
TRUMPET WIND MINISTRIES PROPHETIC EMAIL LIST
Hosted by Pam Clark
P. O. Box 21 ~ Millers Creek, NC 28651
Email: Trumpet-Wind-List@prophetic.net
To Subscribe: http://www.trumpetwindlist.prophetic.net
HOW TO DISTINGUISH THE VOICES THAT SPEAK TO YOU
by Tracy Ruleman (TheGateDC@aol.com)
Website: http://www.thegatedc.com
It is possible to hear the Lord moment by moment but there are other voices that get in the way.
What do the voices sound like and what is the character of the voices?
YOUR OWN VOICE:
Your own voice (you, the flesh) is lazy - it's fat. It simply doesn't want to move. Your voice always wants you to believe it's going to be OK - so call it the "OK" voice. Everything is going to be OK - because it is afraid of change. It cannot guarantee the outcome and it really is addicted to its own pleasure and change upsets it. It settles for just enough because it requires change to get more, it is amazing how you can get used to so little.
Our own voice always wants us to get used to very little because the alternative may be to get us out of our comfort zone, so your own voice will always tell you it's OK, The enemy will never tell you it's OK. He has a different agenda, but your own voice will tell you its Ok, it will work out. When you hear that, just know this is the lazy voice, this is self.
THE ENEMIES VOICE:
The other voice that speaks to you will always accuse you of something. It sounds like your voice only in this respect, remember, this is important, it speaks of something with which you are familiar so you tend to think that it's your voice. It references something that is familiar but it is no more your voice than the man in the moon. This is it's trick, it will remind you of something that makes you uncomfortable, that is the first thing it will do. Usually it will be somewhere you failed, usually somewhere you messed up, just to remember it embarrasses you and then after that, it takes you down the slope. It will ambush you, and then it will mug you.
That is the way it works. It will remind you of something that already puts you on the defensive and then it will accuse you or it will berate you. "You stupidâ?¦.." Don't ever say to yourself, "I am so stupid", because you are empowering that voice to speak for you. It is not your voice but it loves for you to believe it's your voice.
So when that voice speaks to you and says "Your stupid", you say back, "No, your stupid now get out of my face". Begin to recognize it; we need to exercise discipline here. If you exercise some discipline here, you'll get some victory. This is the enemy. You need to throw it right back at him. Never engage it or try to explain or justify, if you do you will give him more power against you. The enemy has no authority to accuse you or judge you, refuse to empower him. He is not out to do you good so DO NOT EMPOWER HIS VOICE AGAINST YOU.
THE VOICE OF THE SPIRIT:
He will make you uncomfortable but you will strangely know that you can do it. He will challenge your voice that wants to be comfortable but he will not accuse you of anything for He's not the accuser of the brethren. He will stretch you. When He stretches you, go up because you've been given the authority to go up. He will never leave you nor forsake you. He will never challenge you to go to some other place in Him and then pull the ground out from under you. He will never do it because it's not Him; it's not His way.
God is not a deceiver. If He tells you to come on up, step up. Step up; you are going to find the ground under you. The voice of the Spirit will always stretch you to the next place, which means you won't be comfortable following the Spirit if you desire to remain comfortable where you are. There will come a time when you are comfortable following the Spirit because it will be your way of life. You will anticipate the excitement of new growth, new extensions in the Spirit.
You can follow the Spirit moment by moment, your walking in His power and the Kingdom advances through you.
You'll be able to distinguish the Spirit's voice from the voice of your own self-will which seeks your comfort. The voice of your enemy that accuses you to demean you and the voice of the Spirit that will take you in a direction often that's not predictable but you'll always find the provision for everything you need to step forward into the next thing.
TRUMPET WIND MINISTRIES PROPHETIC EMAIL LIST
Hosted by Pam Clark
P. O. Box 21 ~ Millers Creek, NC 28651
Email: Trumpet-Wind-List@prophetic.net
To Subscribe: http://www.trumpetwindlist.prophetic.net
NOTE FROM PAM: I haven't met the Franklins, Don and Bonnie, in person, but what I have met online via email has been very precious. They are very humble folks. They have a great sensitivity to the Spirit and a deep love for the real Jesus. I say that because they see things that you can only know by knowing the Spirit and it really bears witness in that unseem realm.
I am sharing these two words, one from each of them, because even though the words seem personal for the ones involved, you can glean from them good things.
Don's word here speaks of things that many don't quite grasp. God has a Spiritual order and Spiritual way of doing things. There is obedience and testing and proving and then order in the order. Someone who knows this order can discern often how much God is in a thing. It can be taught, but few do it. God does things by witnesses, and He does things by confirmations, and He has specific orders in establishing things. I don't consider myself an expert on all of it, but I've observed a few things.
Many times people pray and don't mean what they pray or realize HOW God is going to answer, especially when it comes to ministry. It's a continual learning thing, but when people really cry out in prayer, God WILL send prophets. But sometimes the prophets are not received, or they are not treated with respect in their office and position and sometimes they are not even discerned or discerned correctly. I am not talking about personality. People often miss the ministry (from God) because they look at the personality.
I tend to know the prophetic side of this, but I am sure that when people cry out for souls, that God sends evangelists! But who will hear, and who will teach and minister to the converts? We've had many aborted souls. And who will minister to the evangelist? (That's a worthy side track, but I'll move on.) When people want to establish works, God will SEND ministering apostles, and they don't always have to lay claim to the work, but the Spirit knows. Prophets are also often there as a prophetic foundational witness. Again, God knows. It's done by the Spirit.
There is a Spiritual order, a spiritual way of doing things.
There was a time when being a prophet was not "cool" and was greatly suspect because of all the wild cults you would hear about on the news. I often say jokingly that I was a prophet when prophet wasn't cool. I lived in Houston and in 1976 the Lord called me to the prophetic ministry. I had a lot to learn first and am still learning! I had many words inside me, but they weren't received as far as I could tell, because I wasn't "anybody" and some had some strange reactions when I did share! I was also young in the Lord in many ways, but He was definitely stirring with a zeal inside of me. I gained Godly favor with friends in Godly circles, and more and more I was listened to, because I learned how to present myself and the words. You have to learn.
As time went by, my burden for the prophetic ministry grew and I realized very few knew about what I had been studying because of the Voice Visitation calling that I got. Before I could really give words, people needed to know how to receive words, and it is one big challenge to share and impart that. I published a newsletter, but I also knew that my job was to equip people for the ministry and so I began meetings with myself speaking and different special speakers. It was my training ground as well in many ways.
The focus was (and is) strong within me. But as the Lord had me teach and share about the prophetic ministry, breaking ground in many ways, I noticed there was a pattern as to how it worked. For good reasons, pastors were cautious. Curious, but cautious. There were a lot of flakey people out there calling themselves prophets but who were trying to usurp the authority and ministry of the pastors.
There were a few pastors who lent support and as more got to know me, more favor grew, but still in those days, it was "a few" who were feeling internally the "heat" of the prophetic fires, as these bones (structures) were rattling and coming together. We were discovering ourselves with this "new thing" anointing called the prophetic.
I could go on and on about this, and maybe I will later, but since we were an open city wide meeting, I noticed that many representatives of churches came to "check us out" and that most of those were teachers in the Body. Many of course were aspiring prophets (and apostles) in the making or going through the fires of venturing out in the ministry. I realized that this company needed each other.
What I discovered, long story short, was that the teachers in the Body came and took copious notes and then went back and shared them with their pastors and church leaders. Can you see an order here? The gift gave the revealing of itself and the teachers do what teachers do, they studied and learned and then did the teaching, and the pastors prepared the body. There is an order.
After a season, and not just by me of course, the prophetic broke open in the city! It became commonplace to see one at a meeting or a church service. And across the nation - this was happening all over. And the internet certainly revealed that and connected us even more.
Instructed by God as a trans-local prophet, I know, also being from a big city and travelling, what it is like to be sent. Sometimes the word is hard, and sometimes it is very exciting and always it is hopeful, because you know when the anointing breaks out and God moves, people will be blessed. (Sometimes you just go to pray.)
People sometimes run off the anointing or the prophet with his word, and while God may give a word or two by prophetic anointing on someone not a prophet, His order (and He sticks with it) is words of direction and visioinary insight through the prophets. It's not about what the pastor or person wants, it's about what God wants! There are times when I am all stirred up but can't share it all because the order is not set. And I have to BE ready, if it is my place to give the message.
Just as there are certain ministries through the pastors, and it's not up for grabs or our design, there is also specifics of ministry through the other four fold giftings of Ephesians 4. And sadly still, people in their anointings often can't see the other anointings and what God wants or is trying to do, but the apostles will help us mature here.
So all that is to say that I can really hear what Don is trying to share here from the Lord in this message. It APPEARS weak in some ways, but really is very strong. There are some "prophets" who try to steal the show, but true prophets will equip the Lord's ministry. The burden isn't all on ANY of the five fold giftings, it's a shared work, and they must work together to build HIS House.
More later, Shalom, Shalom!
Learn to hear things by the Spirit. He is speaking to all of us.
AMEN and AMEN!!!
TRUMPET WIND MINISTRIES PROPHETIC EMAIL LIST
Hosted by Pam Clark
P. O. Box 21 ~ Millers Creek, NC 28651
Email: Trumpet-Wind-List@prophetic.net
To Subscribe: http://www.trumpetwindlist.prophetic.net
THE TURNING
by Rick Joyner (www.morningstarministries.org)
In Luke 17:20-21 the Lord stated, “The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or, ‘There it is!’ For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst.” This past week will go down in history as one of the most important weeks in the spiritual history of the world. There were major signs of this, but few observed them. As the above verse says, most are looking for physical signs, and this causes them to miss some of the most important events that are taking place. The real signs are happening in the hearts of men instead of events that make the news.
What happened that was so dramatic that it will make last week one of the most important in history? A subtle resolve was released in Christians around the world. They will begin to refuse to give any more ground to the devil. A turning has begun that will ultimately reveal that in many nations the devil reached his “high water mark” last week and he will not advance any further. Christians in many nations will take their stand for righteousness and truth, and the darkness will be turned back.
There was a sign in the natural of this major turning—the blackout over the Northeastern United States. They may come up with other explanations of this event, but what happened was a reversal of the current, or a reversal of the power. The reason that they will probably come up with other explanations for this is because what happened is technically impossible. This was just a little token from the Lord that the power which has been flowing one way for so long, corrupting the morals of our nation, and releasing perversion and deception, are now going to reverse. As this happens, you can count on it being disruptive and unsettling in a multitude of ways, but overall it will be handled very well, and the end result will be the deliverance of a nation from destruction.
The death of Edi Amin was another sign that few observed or understood. This man represented a kind of ruthless demonic power for slaughtering Christians and Jews. A prophecy came forth in 1975 from Bob Jones, saying this man would be demonically protected and kept alive for many years, but when he died it would be because these demonic powers were being weakened. Now we can expect others who operate by the same power to start losing their protection as well.
Other areas where we will start to see a reversal are:
The Removal of God From Our Schools and Public Places.
God is coming back. The defiance of the judge in Alabama to remove the Ten Commandments from his court has the kind of prophetic power behind it to begin turning back the tragic loss of freedom of religion and freedom of speech that has been working for decades to undermine our basic liberties. Many others have defied such orders for a time, but they did not have the kind of prophetic power that this event does.
When I speak of prophetic power in an event, one of the great examples of this in history was when Martin Luther nailed his Ninety-five Theses to the door of the church in Wittenburg. Many others had taken similar stands, but when Martin Luther took his stand for his convictions, even though he was an obscure person in an obscure village, it set off a chain of events that changed the world more than any conqueror in history.
This is the kind of prophetic power that the courageous act of Rosa Parks demonstrated when she took her stand against the humiliation and injustice of segregation by refusing to move to the back of a bus. Who would have thought such an act would spark the revolution that it did? Many others had done similar things without the same kind of results.
The only way to explain it is that it had prophetic authority. God cares so deeply about injustice that we are told that righteousness and justice are the foundation of His throne (see Psalm 89:14). He is only looking for someone to stand in the gap that He can use to intervene in the affairs of men.
I am not saying by this that this one event in Alabama will be as big an event as that of Martin Luther, but it has prophetic power behind it and will accomplish much—far more than we would think such an event could.
As a footnote, there are gates of hell and gates of heaven. These are places where either heaven or hell gain entry. It is no accident that Montgomery, Alabama is a place where two such prophetic events have taken place.
The Homosexual Onslaught Of Perversion and Immorality Has Reached Its High Water Mark and Will Be Turned Back.
Homosexuality is not only clearly and repeatedly stated to be a sin in Scripture, but it is called “a sin against nature,” and “an abomination” (Leviticus 18:22). It is a perversion that leads to a depravity that God will not tolerate long, and will lead to the destruction of a nation. The things that are done in public at gay parades and demonstrations are becoming such a demeaning outrage to the rest of the human race that a huge backlash is beginning.
It is incomprehensible but true that today, in the United States of America, it is against the law to even mention God in schools and public places, except to take His name in vain, while homosexuality is not only flaunted, but promoted. This is not only done in the public schools of the nation, it is being promoted even to young children.
Homosexuals, who are demanding tolerance from all others, are now seen to be the most intolerant of all in threatening and attacking those who they perceive to stand in the way of their drive to dominate only the political, public, private, and even the religious life of the nation. This has gone as far as it will, and will be turned back.
In this there is a real danger for Christians. Satan will not cast out Satan. Anger, bitterness, and violence will not cast out perversion. God does love every single homosexual and desires for them to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. Every human being should be treated with the utmost respect and dignity by Christians—regardless of their religion or sexual orientation. We should be outraged and take a stand against injustice inflicted upon homosexuals.
Do not forget Abraham, who interceded the way he did for God to, if possible, spare Sodom. Because they may have overreacted to the intolerance and injustices that they have been subject to does not mean that we should. Our goal or desire should not be the destruction or even injury to any human being, regardless of the grip that sin now has on their life, but rather their salvation and true freedom.
Even so, sin is a choice, not a biological condition. True religion cannot be imposed on others. What needs to be pushed back is the imposing and even militant flaunting of this perversion and immorality on others, but we should care and work for the civil rights of every person to be preserved.
Great Lights Are Being Sent to Break the Oppression and Bondage Off of “The Dark Continent.”
The “dark continent” I am talking about here is not Africa, but Europe. Missionaries from Africa are going to help save Europe from the veil of deep darkness that now grips this continent. This is the bread that was cast upon the waters by the European nations who sacrificed so much to send missionaries all over the world with the gospel. Now, for the sake of the fathers, missionaries from the nations they sent them to are returning as grace from the Lord to help save Europe.
This is another “reversal” but it is from the Lord, and it will turn back the tide of darkness in many of these nations. Even so, some, such as The Netherlands, are in danger of natural disasters soon washing them away if the turning of repentance does not come soon. Pray especially for The Netherlands, Sweden, Belgium, and France.
There are other areas, such as abortion and the regard for life that we will begin to see light prevail over the darkness after many decades of retreat. Many nations that have been poor and oppressed will begin to prosper because of turning to the Light. Many nations that have been prosperous, but have turned to the darkness, will begin to slide economically.
This is because Satan is losing his power to give the kingdoms of this world to those who bow to him. He may become even more enraged, and will yet do much damage as he loses his exalted place in the affairs of men, as he is “cast out of heaven,” but his time is short, and the reversal has begun. It may take years to be able to see it clearly, but last week marked the beginning of this turning.
TRUMPET WIND MINISTRIES PROPHETIC EMAIL LIST
Hosted by Pam Clark
P. O. Box 21 ~ Millers Creek, NC 28651
Email: Trumpet-Wind-List@prophetic.net
To Subscribe: http://www.trumpetwindlist.prophetic.net
THE TURNING - Part II
by Rick Joyner (www.morningstarministries.org)
This week we will continue the prophetic theme that we began last week concerning the way that major turning points have been reached, as well as some of the ways we are going to see Luke 17:20-21 fulfilled:
"The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or, 'There it is!' For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst."
There are major spiritual shifts coming, which will result in the reversal of the way things have been flowing for a long time. These shifts have already begun, but some may take quite a while before they can be seen as a reversal. Some involve nations, even whole continents and cultures. Just as an aircraft carrier cannot turn like a speedboat, but can take miles to turn around, some of the things that have begun to turn may hardly even seem to be turning for a time. Even so, they have begun to turn, and we will soon see a complete reversal in the direction in which they were going.
First, let me review a few things that have been included in previous prophetic writings from our ministry, or statements put out by some of our prophetic friends. We need to consider how these words were fulfilled to understand where we are now.
When Bob Jones first prophesied that the next President would be “a burning bush from Texas,” George W. Bush was not yet a candidate, and we really did not know to whom this referred. When George Bush announced his candidacy, James Robison told me that he was going to be the next President. I had already forgotten Bob’s “burning bush prophecy” and to be honest I was a little skeptical about Bush becoming the next President. Later, when looking over Bob’s prophecy, I became a believer. However, I confess to feeling that Bush was more of a politician than a man of principle like Alan Keyes and Gary Bauer who I would have personally preferred. However, I think my perception of George W. Bush was wrong.
Then there was another aspect of the “burning bush” that seemed improbable. In Bob’s prophecy it would be the church that elected George Bush as President. This was more literally fulfilled than I think any of us realized. It was not just because Christians voting made the difference in the election.
Bob Jones shared his “burning bush prophecy” in several black churches in the Panhandle of Florida just before the election. It persuaded them to vote for Bush instead of Al Gore. If you watched the election coverage that night, Gore was awarded the state of Florida at first because they forgot the Panhandle poles closed an hour later as they were in the Central Time Zone. Even when they caught this mistake, the Panhandle was expected to go for Gore, but to everyone’s surprise it didn’t. By just a handful of votes, the Panhandle counties were surprisingly carried by Bush. In fact, one count was that Bush carried the state by 341 votes. This was a number given to Bob many years ago to represent a coming unity between three major things (three “for” one or three becoming one).
Bob Jones jokingly claims that he was the one who got Bush elected, but I think this is literally true. The handful of black churches he went to and persuaded to vote for Bush instead of voting for Gore is likely what made the difference. I think we could also say that George Bush was elected by the black church because of this. Of course, neither will ever be credited for this in man’s history books, but I think on that great Judgment Day when God’s history books are opened, we are going to find out that this is really what happened.
So, what is my point? First, God really is the one who decides who is going to sit in authority. He also has ways of doing things that reveal His heart, so we should study them. As a part of this whole revelation about “the burning bush” and who would be the next President, we need to understand what the “the burning bush” part of this prophecy meant.
Some have interpreted this to be the way the Twin Towers went up in flames during his presidency, or as a symbol of the war that we are now in. However, I do not believe this has yet been fulfilled the way it was intended, and in fact it seems to have been going in the opposite direction. For Bush to fulfill this calling, there will have to be a major “turning” in the foreign policy of the United States. If this change does not come about, George W. Bush will not be reelected.
The “burning bush” in Scripture was a bush on which the fire burned but it was not consumed. Of course, there have been few Presidents in history that have been under as much fire as this one, and at least to date it has not consumed him. However, the main point of the burning bush in Scripture was not the natural phenomenon of it burning and not being consumed. It was that the Lord spoke through the burning bush to call His deliverer and set His people (Israel) free from their bondage.
Not only has this not happened yet, but the Bush Administration has formulated a foreign policy that has only increased Israel’s bondage. This policy not only has the potential to nullify any chance for Bush to be reelected, but it can actually lead to terrible consequences for our nation. You can trace the fall of the British Empire to their opposition to the purposes of God with Israel. Likewise, if there is not a turning, our foreign policy will continue to drift further and further from biblical prophecies concerning the purposes of God with Israel in the last days. These prophecies are both an irresistible force and immovable object. Those who go against them will not last long.
How has this happened? This is a “Haman spirit” in the U.S. State Department. Remember that Haman was the one who tried to orchestrate the destruction of Israel in the book of Esther. This same spirit that tried to use Haman has stopped trying to destroy Israel, and throughout history has used others such as Peter the Hermit, and Hitler. Just as the Lord raised up Esther to save Israel, as well as reveal Haman, who died on his own gallows that he had built for Mordecai the Jew, the Lord is raising up a “new order of Esther” to do the same.
As those who have followed our ministry have heard us say many times over the years, the same spirit that rose up in Nazi Germany came to the United States after World War II. This is because the United States not only has such a purpose with Israel in these times, but we have the largest population of Jews in the world. This spirit will not manifest itself as a Nazi again. It will be far more subtle. However, the primary places it is trying to gain control over is the U.S. State Department and the United Nations. However, those who are a part of a strategy to destroy Israel will ultimately fall into their own trap.
Let me add at this point that we are not warring against flesh and blood, but against spiritual powers in high places (see Ephesians 6:12). The individuals who are being used in this way may not know or understand it, but they are promoting policies that will not only weaken Israel, but are actually putting her existence in jeopardy.
It will probably get to the point where it appears that this strategy will have worked before it is revealed in such a way that it will actually empower Israel to remove her enemies in many places.
The Lord is not going to let Israel be destroyed. As an abundance of Scriptures reveal, there are not only a host of prophecies that are yet to be fulfilled with the nation of Israel. There are many promises of God that He made to Israel, which are clearly made to the “natural seed” of Israel, the “Jew according to the flesh,” and not to the “spiritual seed” of Israel, which the Lord declared could not be changed without impugning both His Lordship and His integrity. Many of these have to do with the land that Israel was promised, which the United States has long been pressuring Israel to give up in exchange for peace.
Israel may in fact be pressured to give up more land, but this will never lead to peace; rather it will lead to a much more devastating conflict. God’s Word will be proven true in the end. Everyone who has stood in the way of it coming to pass has been removed. Regardless of how pious our President is, and sincere in trying to obey the Lord in other areas, he will not be reelected unless his policies toward Israel change.
I have had believers, not only in our own country but around the world ask me how our President could be a Christian and do what he is doing to Israel. First, nowhere does it say that one has to understand all of the prophecies concerning Israel or these times to be saved. I have personally gone from believing that our President was mostly a politician to believing that he is probably one of the most principled leaders that we have had in recent times. I am convinced that he is sincerely trying to live by the light that he has been given. For this reason the Lord is going to have mercy on him and our country, by showing him what presently and shamefully he is doing. I say “shamefully” because some of them are hypocritical to even the most simple observer, which he must somehow presently be blinded to because he really is a man of principle.
Like King Ahasuerus in the book of Esther, our President must not understand what some of his closest advisors are trying to do through him that threatens both Israel and Christians. This “Haman spirit” that has risen to such a place of influence in our government must soon be revealed, and I believe it will be done in such a way that it will be destroyed in the very “gallows” that it set up for the Jews.
There is a “new order of Esther” arising that will be used to expose the devil’s continuing plots to destroy the Jewish people, as well as Christians who have a common destiny at the end of this age. I will continue on this subject next week in The Word for the Week entitled, “Saving A Nation.”
A Personal Note From Rick
For the past three years, this Word for the Week has mostly been devoted to teaching, and I have used the Special Words section of our website to issue prophetic perspectives. However, since this past June, I have had more prophetic dreams than I think I have had during the previous thirty years of my Christian life. Because of this, The Word for the Week will be used at least for a time, mostly for a prophetic perspective, as this is frequently what I am getting at this time.
Important News About Harvest Fest
The Harvest Fest Conference next month (September 25-28) will almost certainly be our most important conference ever. A clear trumpet call will go forth from it. Believers from every state and from around the world, have been registering. There are still campsites and hotel rooms available but we only have a few more tents for rent for churches and ministries that want to have their own outreach in Tabernacle City. Reserve yours now if you intend to do this.
Also, even though we had intended to raise the registration fee after August 31, we are going to continue with the registration fee of just $49 per person and $39 per person when registering in groups of ten or more. The registration fee is to help cover the basic costs of the conference, but if anyone cannot afford this registration fee, please just send whatever you can afford, and it would be an honor for us to cover the difference for you. We do not want anyone to miss out on this for financial reasons.
For more information, or to register, check out the Conferences Section on this website: www.morningstarministries.org
Won't the naysayers love that number! LOL.
The above inputs are for your prayerful consideration. Discern according to Scripture, as always; and according to Holy Spirit's speaking into your heart, spirit, mind.
YOUR SONS AND DAUGHTER SHALL PROPHECY: Prophet Gifts in Ministry Today by Earnest B. Gentile; Forward by C Peter Waqgner
CHAPTER 14
Concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be ignorant. --1 Corinthians 12:1, NKJV
OVER THE YEARS scholars have attempted to establish sound principles and rules of interpretation to guide Bible students—a science and art we call hermeneutics. Generally these guidelines are helpful, but a biased rule or application produces a faulty theology and alters the perception of Bible truth.
A student approaching the Bible with an anti-supernatural hermeneutic, for instance, will automatically eliminate the supernatural elements of the Bible, including prophecy. Bultmann and other German theologians carried this approach to the extreme as they "demythologized" the New Testament. Its recorded miracles were not miracles at all, they argued, but merely symbolic stories. This liberal attitude has claimed many unfortunate disciples today.
A more subtle approach is used by some evangelical, ostensibly Bible-believing Christians. They freely accept the miracles and spiritual happenings of Bible days but say such events are not meant for today. This approach is still an anti-supernatural hermeneutic, merely in a different guise. P231 •
The adherents of this view reject any possibility that miraculous Bible stories or teachings might find literal application or expression in our day. Thus they deftly eliminate the possibility of prophecy in today’s, Church.
We have already mentioned cessationism, the belief that prophecy and other spiritual gifts no longer exist and are no longer needed. This view purports that prophecy and other miraculous gifts ceased functioning once the New Testament was written. 1 The demise of prophecy was simply part the disappearance of all spiritual gifts from the Church in the post-apostolic age. This position is stated by Charles C. Ryrie, a leading cessation:
“The gift of prophecy included receiving a message directly from God through special revelation, being guided in declaring it to the people, and having it authenticated in some way by God Himself. The content of that message may have included telling the future (which is what we normally think of as prophesying), but it also included revelation from God concerning the present.”
“This too was a gift limited in its need and use, for it was needed during the writing of the New Testament and its usefulness ceased when the books were completed. God's message then was contained in written form, and no new revelation was given in addition to the written record. 2 (emphasis added [by bk author])
The cessationist faces a most difficult task: to prove from the Bible that prophecy and spiritual gifts ceased. The following four arguments are the ones most commonly used to substantiate cessationism:
1. The Bible teaches that the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit ceased when the original apostles died.
2. Such so-called prophecy becomes a substitute for or addition to apostolic teaching and Scripture.
3. Church history does not confirm the continuance of miraculous gifts.
4. Prophecy and spiritual manifestations are dangerous and to be avoided because they are easily exploited and misused.
Before answering these four arguments, let me pose an illustration.
If a person was marooned on a desert island and the only book he had was a Bible, the contents of which were unknown to him, what conclusions would he draw about Christ and the Church as he began to read?
He would understand the great purpose of the coming of Jesus Christ and His death, burial and resurrection. From the gospels, Acts and the epistles he would gain a picture of the miracle-working power of God. [end p 232]
He would also see that the miraculous ministry of Jesus in one small nation was then carried forth by the Church to reach all nations.
Would this new Bible reader find anything to indicate that the miracles and gifts of the Spirit ceased after the early Church? Quite the contrary. Our reader would find lists of spiritual gifts and ministries scattered throughout the New Testament. 3 He would acknowledge the assumption of the apostles that the spiritual gifts were standard ministries in the Church. [added paragraphing per Quix]
He would affirm statements like the one by Peter in Acts 2:39 about Gentiles: "The promise [of the Holy Spirit] is for you and your children, and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God shall call to Himself." Our friend would find no teaching about the cessation of prophecy anywhere in Scripture. This marvelous book filled with miraculous stories and statements would register only one thought in his mind: that the early Church believed in the miraculous and that miracles are normative in the lives of God's people today.
Once rescued and brought back to civilization, our friend would seek to find the church he had read about in the Bible. Instead he would find, to his amazement, that many Christians do not believe in the miraculous at all, while others conclude that signs and wonders were only for Bible days and not for modern believers. Although he had discovered on the island that Scripture teaches the existence of miracles and the gifts of the Spirit, he would find a strange situation: Many purport to revere the Bible but do not believe what it says. These people have a conviction based not on Scripture but on their own bereft experience.
[QUIX COMMENTARY: This illustration alone shows the lack of internal consistency in the cessationist argument. Whether blindness or willful deception, it is obvious to any fair-minded person from the illustration above that THE CESSATIONIST MUST HAVE EXTRA BIBLICAL CONSTRUCTIONS ON REALITY enter the equation OR THERE IS NO CESSATIONISM FROM THE BIBLE TAKEN ALONE AND APPLIED.]
Answer 1: The Bible Does Not Teach Cessationism
Five Scripture passages are used by prominent cessationists in their contention that the gift of prophecy no longer operates: Romans 15:18-19; 1 Corinthians 13:8-13; 2 Corinthians 12:12; Ephesians 2:20; Revelation 22:18-19. 4 We will look at each passage, then consider some brief, cogent thoughts about the meaning of the text that will set the tone for the rest of the book.
1. Romans 15:18-19 (Niv)
I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me in leading the Gentiles to obey God by what I have said and done—by the power of signs and miracles, through the power of the Spirit. So from Jerusalem all the way around to Illyricum, I have fully proclaimed the gospel of Christ. P. 233
p. 234
Modern-day cessationists argue that the main purpose of miracles is to authenticate the apostles as trustworthy authors of holy Scripture. Once these authors wrote their material and died, goes the theory, miracles were no longer needed because there is no more Scripture to be written or authors to authenticate. The possibility of prophecy in today's Church is thereby eliminated.
A more immediate purpose for signs and wonders, however, is shown in the above text. The miracles authenticated the message of salvation through Jesus Christ, which Paul preached to the Gentiles [Bold & color emphasis added by Qx]. At that moment those heathen did not even know Paul would be a writer of New Testament books. It was the message that gripped their hearts— but only after the miraculous had gained their attention! [emphasis Qx added above and below wherever bold or color is] We preach the very same message to the people of our day. Miracles are needed as much today as they were then.
The purpose of signs and wonders is scarcely mentioned in the New Testament. But a thoughtful examination of all possible references shows only two reasons for miracles: to authenticate the character of the Lord Jesus and His relationship with His heavenly Father; and to authenticate the message proclaimed about Him. 5
2. 1 Corinthians 13:8-13
Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect 6 comes, the partial will be done away. When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I shall know fully just as I also have been fully known. But now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
Everyone agrees that verse 10 of this chapter identifies prophecy and other gifts as temporary. The main issue is when these gifts will cease. The answer lies in the meaning of the phrase when the perfect comes. Various interpretations have been drawn from Paul's statement.
The meaning that came to my mind as I read this remarkable text for the first time remains unchanged more than fifty years later. I believe the coming of "the perfect" refers to the Second Coming of Christ, when we shall see the Lord "face to face." 7 Some cessationists agree with this interpretation but must then compensate by making the time of the cessation of prophecy an open question, to be decided on the basis of other passages. 8 end• p.234 p. 235 Other cessationists believe "the perfect" (or "perfection") refers to the New Testament writings that completed the canon of Scripture. Since the Church now possesses the full message of God—that is, the completed Bible—we no longer need prophecy. 9 But this position disregards the function of continuing prophecy as described in New Testament churches: for comfort, edification, exhortation and future prediction (1 Corinthians 14:3; Acts 11:28). The written scriptural record is complete but the activity of the Spirit in applying the principles of Scripture to our current needs continues just as it did in the early Church.
F. David Farnell feels that the most viable interpretation is to translate to teleion as "mature" or "complete" rather than "the perfect state." 10 He stresses the growing up of the collective Church of Christ during the Church age. This view is comprehensive enough to embrace the relative maturity implied by the illustration in verse 11, Farnell believes, as well as the absolute maturity depicted in verse 12. 11 Eventually, according to this position, we will arrive at complete maturity, but we are sufficiently mature enough now not to need prophecy and spiritual gifts.
This argument neglects Paul's strong teaching on the place of prophecy in the church program. Since he boldly includes prophecy with other doctrinal teachings (which [ARBITRARILY--Qx] are not ignored, incidentally, by the cessationists), we are not at liberty to cut and paste doctrines according to personal prejudices or to turn a cold shoulder to significant information.
Paul wanted no church of his day to be deficient in spiritual gifts. His comment to the Corinthians is significant. He did not want them [QX: WHO? BELIEVERS!] to be "lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation [the Second Coming] of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Corinthians 1:7). This indicates to me that all charismata can and will be in effect until the Second Coming of Christ.
-------------------------------
TO BE CONTINUED IN THE NEXT POST
-------------------------------
The things that mark an apostle—signs, wonders and miracles—were done among you with great perseverance,
Written in this way, the text does seem to say that signs and wonders authenticate the apostles. Jack Deere, however, casts reasonable doubt:
This translation is inaccurate. A literal translation is, "The signs of an apostle were performed among you in all endurance with signs and wonders and miracles." In this passage Paul uses "sign" (Greek semeion ) in two different ways. The first use of "sign" in the phrase "signs of an apostle" cannot refer to miracles, for then Paul would be saying that "the miracles of an apostle were done among you with signs and wonders and miracles." What would be the point of such a statement? Paul does not say that "the [end p] 235 signs of an apostle" are miracles, but rather that "the signs of an apostle" are accompanied by signs, wonders and miracles. If Paul had meant that the signs of his apostleship were signs and wonders and miracles, then he would have used a different construction in the Greek language. 12
The vindications of Paul's apostleship were not his miracles but his suffering, his blameless life, his endless care of the churches and the many conversions among those to whom he preached (2 Corinthians 6:3-10; 11:22-33). The miracles authenticated not himself but the message he preached.
4. Ephesians 2:20
[The church] having been built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone.
Farnell says, "Once that foundation had been laid by those in the first century who possessed the gifts of apostleship and prophecy no further need to relay the foundation by subsequent generations is implied.” 13 The early apostles and prophets certainly set a solid theological foundation that does not need to be laid again. (We do not, for example, need to have the Scripture reinvented.) The LB says, "What a foundation you stand on now: the apostles and prophets."
The original theological and doctrinal foundation of the Christian Church was given by revelation and written through inspiration by the first-century apostles and prophets. Most commentators would agree. This was special and enduring revelation for the Church of all time.
The activity of the apostles and prophets, however, was broader in the early Church than writing the canon of Scripture There were other apostles in the early Church in addition to the original Twelve, and there were prophets who wrote no Scripture. All these functioned according to the objective mentioned in Ephesians 4:11-13, the perfecting or maturing of the Church “Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ" (verse 13, Kjv). The principle of apostles and Prophets working together to establish the Church is illustrated in the appointment of a team of apostles, Paul and Barnabas (Acts 14: 4). (Acts 14:14) , and Judas and Silas (Acts 15:22, 32), to bring the doctrinal verdict of the Jerusalem Council to the Gentile churches.
The theological foundation is truly set in place, but the growing, maturing body of Christ must have the ongoing fivefold ministries mentioned in this text to maintain the spirit and correctness of what was instituted in the first century. Ephesians was written at that time in history, but its spiritual agenda was expected to continue uninterrupted until the coming of Christ, which necessitated the continuation of those five ministries to hold, guide and govern the Church.
I cannot believe, after reading the clear operating procedure given for the Church in Ephesians 4:11-13, that Farnell is right when he says: "The gift of prophecy played a vital role in the foundational aspects of the church. With the church firmly established through the ministry of the first-century apostles and New Testament prophets, prophecy passed from the scene." 14 Are we to pay no heed to the essential, supernatural teachings of the early Church? Are we to write off the ministries and gifts that made the early Church great? God forbid!
5. Revelation 22:18-19
I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them. God shall add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.
Robert L. Thomas, a strong cessationist, explains his viewpoint of these verses: "With the completion of the last book of the New Testament, the gift of prophecy became obsolete.... Since the Book of Revelation covers events occurring from the time John wrote it until the eternal state, any alleged prophecy subsequent to the book of Revelation is counterfeit." 15
Prophecies given in first-century churches were never intended to be an addition to the Scripture. A prophetic utterance bringing comfort to a band of persecuted Christians was in no danger of replacing, superseding or being added to the Bible. Prophecy received by Timothy with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery was not equated with Scripture. Rather, these two examples illustrate the "now word" of encouragement inspired by the Spirit to help God's people at a specific time and place.
Let me use a personal illustration. My second daughter, Debbie, was soon to move with her family from San Jose, where we all lived, to another city in northern California. She wanted to be a teacher but had no credentials or even a college degree to meet the standards. Then David Schoch, a prophet of God, visited our church for prophetic presbytery meetings and told her with no explanation that she need not worry about having a teaching certificate. After moving, Debbie enrolled her children in the large Christian school there. The fascinating story is too long to tell here, but suffice it to say she did, in fact, become a very popular sixth-grade teacher, and then a third-grade teacher in that school. This unusual story is not meant to excuse a lack of education or to advocate hiring teachers without credentials, but to show that even in highly structured and standardized settings, it is possible for God to make exceptions for those qualified by Him. This remarkably gifted teacher had been given a prophetic word that not only gave her a glimpse of a future possibility, but it released in her the faith that enabled God to bring it to pass.
I do not put this prophetic word on a par with the eternal logos of God, of course, but affirm that the simple little prophecy was one hundred percent accurate and a remarkable assurance to Debbie.
Prophecy in the Church does not add to the Scripture but complements it and encourages the people. Three simple proofs confirm this:
• Prophecy is included in the listings of spiritual gifts in 1 Cor- inthians 12-14, indicating it would be part of the standard operation in a local church.
• Prophecy occurred in at least fourteen of the local churches mentioned in the New Testament (see chapter 10). "The charismata were present in every geographical area in which the church was found This obvious noncanonical use of prophecy in the ancient churches set a standard for the entire Church age and includes the churches of today.
• Three references in the New Testament about "judging" prophecy (see chapters 20 and 21) clearly indicate that prophecy in the churches did not compete with the canon of Scripture, either then or now.
Answer 2: Prophecy Complements Scripture
Cessationism assumes that the only purpose of biblical prophecy was to supply us with a "canonized" Scripture. Now, with the full canon given, we must assume prophecy is no longer needed. Some also feel that to affirm prophecy for today compromises the unique authority of the Bible, causing a shift from an objective confidence in Scripture to unreliable (or even deceptive) subjective experience.
Proponents of this view misunderstand the nature of prophecy that functioned in the early churches. Much prophesying took place to aid in daily living on a personal and practical level. (We discussed this thoroughly in chapter 10, so my comments here will be limited.) I agree with Michael Harper: "In the New Testament sense prophecy is concerned mainly with the domestic life of the Church." 17
The text of both Testaments was inspired prophetically by God's Spirit. In addition, a unique, common prophetic ministry was taught and experienced in the New Testament that, because of possible fallibility, required testing and approval. Such prophecy, properly handled, is not just subjective but wonderfully edifying to the church body. Although it can be one hundred percent accurate, it is not considered canonical.
Later I will emphasize that prophecy, along with every other spiritual manifestation, is subject to and evaluated by the supreme standard: the canonized Scripture given by divine revelation to the prophets and apostles. The Bible text is exalted over local prophecy, which can never substitute for or add to apostolic doctrine and Scripture.
Personally, I do not want my theology to depend on experience rather than Scripture. The thought that a spiritual experience can alone validate itself is repugnant to me. Certainly personal experience is important, but prophecy is safeguarded by the sanctified biblical thinking of the rest of the local church—and above all by the written Word of God.
[QX commentary: There is, though a bit of a fallacy in trying to distinguish between “experience” based theology vs “Bible based” theology. There could be NO AWARENESS OF EVEN THE EXISTENCE of THE BIBLE APART FROM OUR EXPERIENCE with the ink on pages. The tendency is to say that oh, well, our experience with Scripture is much less likely to be flawed than our experience with hearing God directly. NOT NECESSARILY as centuries of error, heresy ebbing and flowing have demonstrated rather extensively.
Also, prophecies etc. are to be judged by the local Body of Christ—a local congregation or a subgroup thereof. This is certainly less hefty than the group which decided on The Canon. But the process is quite similar, if not identical. A group of believers met in approximately 300 AD and determined what constituted the Canon.
Now, if Cessationists are to be believed, these people DID NOT have any HOLY SPIRIT INFLUENCE in deciding what the Canon was—WHAT A CRAZY NOTION THAT IS! But the Cessationists on this thread have insisted that Holy Spirit quit communicating (A) at Christ’s Resurrection—the silliest notion expressed hereon. Or, (B) that Holy Spirit quit communicating when John The Beloved put the last character in the last word of the last sentence in the last chapter of Revelation. WELL, NOW, IF Holy Spirit quit communicating to man at those times, THE LOVELY GROUP MEETING IN 300 AD to determine what the Canon constituted must have been operating totally in the flesh. Yet we are to believe that THEY, OPERATING TOTALLY IN THE FLESH, GAVE US THE PERFECTION spoken of in I Corinthians? It’s hard to imagine a sillier notion about Scripture than that.]
Answer 3: Historical Evidence Exists for Miraculous Gifts
This view has already been argued successfully elsewhere, 18 so I will content myself with continuing to scatter convincing illustrations of prophecy throughout this book as we proceed, and let Jack Deere strike forcefully at the heart of the cessationist argument:
There is one basic reason why Bible-believing Christians do not believe in the miraculous gifts of the Spirit today. It is simply this: they have not seen them. Their
of course, supports their lack of belief, but their tradition would have no chance of success if it were not coupled with their lack of experience of the miraculous. . . No cessationist writer that I am aware of tries to make his case on Scripture alone. All of these writers appeal both to Scripture and to either present or past history to support their case. It often goes unnoticed that this appeal to history, either past or present, is actually an argument from experience, or better, an argument from the lack of experience. 19
Answer 4: Proper Use Invalidates Misuse
Prophecy is sometimes misused, and the approach of a new millennium causes more doomsday prophets to arise. 20 But I like this positive attitude by Joseph Hogan: "As soon as we speak of prophets, people are immediately worried about false prophets. On the contrary, it seems to me that we should pray for prophecy! The problem now is an absence of prophets. It seems that the Holy Spirit is raising up prophets in our midst. "We should be attentive. The community can judge the worth of prophecy after it happens, but let it happen first." 21
Every thoughtful, responsible leader I know who believes in the gifts of the Spirit for today also believes that prophecy should be evaluated, tested and examined. 22 This is the strength and safeguard of the Church as false prophets proliferate in these last days. Let's reclaim the vibrant, positive belief in spiritual gifts and their operation that the early Christians had! They were confident that the same God who gave gifts to His children would give them adequate insight to exercise them. Gordon Fee wisely counsels that "the antidote for abuse is proper use." 23
A Proper Perspective
It is encouraging to see material now appearing that treats spiritual gifts in a personal, positive way. A noticeable handicap that has confronted commentators in the past has been a lack of practical, personal experience. William Barclay, the brilliant Scottish Presbyterian scholar, confessed while commenting on prophecy in 1 Corinthians 14: "This chapter is very difficult to understand because it deals with a phenomenon which, for most of us, is outside our experience." 24 Dedicated scholarship will miss or overlook certain insights when denied the experience of the activity being discussed. Mark Cartledge brings out this very point in a thought-provoking article for Themelios:
Usually the interpreter's understanding of what the NT has to say influences how the contemporary phenomenon is perceived. With the NT as a starting point, it is possible to beg the question with respect to contemporary experience. This is the danger that all interpreters face, and could succumb to. The lack of academic material inevitably contributes to this problem. The material which scholars present as relating to modern experience is often the better quality of popular literature, but nevertheless the selection is often small and possibly unrepresentative. If there is a central weakness in the scholarship considering this question, it lies on the contemporary side, in contrast to their NT discussion. 25
My participation in prophetic activity during the past fifty years has been both joyful and educational. We do need the scholar's insight of the biblical text, but we must also have meaningful contemporary experience and pastoral application. Let's be wary of the dangers yet appreciative of the blessings, always watching that we do not push the experience beyond reasonable scriptural application. But please, do not shut the church doors on prophecy!
Prophecy did continue after the first apostles passed from the scene, but by approximately A.D. 260 the ominous force of institutionalization had snuffed out the prophetic flame in the mainline Church. How and why did this happen? Is it really necessary to sacrifice the prophetic dimension to ecclesiastical structure as a church becomes more formalized? This is our subject in the next chapter.
REFLECTIONS
C. S. Lewis, in his Screwtape Letters, once said that "there are two equal and opposite errors into which our race can fall about... devils. One is to disbelieve in their existence. The other is to believe, and to feel an excessive and unhealthy interest in them." We might say something similar to Christians today on the subject of claims to revelations from God: one is to disbelieve any such thing, while the other is to believe all such claims without exercising proper discernment. 26
David Pytches
I have been enormously heartened by the fact that there are thousands of people who are sick of narrowness and churchiness, and who long for the fresh air of the New Testament. I am greatly encouraged too by the obvious fact that thousands of people deplore the spiritual loss that the church has plainly sustained since the days of Pentecost. There is I find a hunger—sometimes almost a desperate hunger to regain the shining certainties and revel in the freedom and power of the new-born church. ... I am firmly of the opinion that so great is the longing for New Testament Christianity that it will be along this line that true spiritual revival will come. 27
J. B. Phillips
. . . Our theologizing must stop paying mere lip service to the Spirit and recognize his crucial role in Pauline theology; and it means that the church must risk freeing the Spirit from being boxed into the creed and getting him back into the experienced life of the believer and the believing community. 28 Gordon Fee
The prophetic gifts are not just an optional novelty for the super-spiritual; they are essential tools for effective functioning in pastoral, teaching, evangelistic or apostolic ministry. 29
Rick Joyner
The gift of Prophecy is not to be discouraged, but is to be "earnestly desired." Paul makes it clear that the Corinthian problem ... was not charismatic excuses, but misdirection and misuse of God's grace. Paul did not take either of the two extremes used in coping with this problem common today: (1) to suggest that the manifestation of certain gifts was evidence of high spiritual status or (2) to squelch all manifestations of the Spirit—to the contrary, he actually encouraged them. 30
Jon Ruthven
PING TO the DREAMS/VISIONS ping list regarding:
AN EXCELLENT PRESENTATION of several reasons why the Cessationists view of Scripture cannot be true.
I assume you are referring to "when that which is perfect is come" here. I also assume you think that refers to the Bible? I am assuming a lot I know, but I have heard this often. I personally think that could refer to the second coming of Christ, who is the only Perfect that I know of.
That same verse says that knowledge will cease, do you think that knowledge ceased when the Bible was printed?
I hope they respond.
I've lobbed several solid points like that at them and they seem to avoid them like the plague!
Understandably.
Yet they demand info! Welllll, they have two extensive posts of solid info. I bet they don't deal with any of it very well, much less the whole of it!
Any one of a number of those points would scuttle their position.
Anyway--tired. Heading for bed.
Bless U!
BTTT
Have you had a chance to read the chapter from the book in posts 668 and 669?
What's your take on the points made?
AN EXCELLENT PRESENTATION of several reasons why the Cessationists view of Scripture cannot be true.
*****
I am not moved by what others do or don't believe. I am not insecure in my beliefs, The Lord has walked with me thru my life, I trust Him. Do I have every jot and tittle to perfection? No ...but you can't doctrinize Faith, Hope and Love. Each individual deals with those thru his own personal experience with our Father. The pharisees thought they had it perfect and gosh....they flat out missed it!! They had scripture, they had all the writings of the prophets and holy men and they were blind and stiff necked because for ALL their knowledge ...they had dead hearts, deaf ears and blind eyes. I ignore that which puffs up of head knowledge, it is vanity. Religion is a tool of control. Faith puts wind under you wings, and sets you free. Let those who will expound their knowledge expound, let them talk.......means nothing....it is vanity. God is not impressed, especially when he finds nothing more than whitewashed cold stone full of an already dead mans works.
VERY EXCELLENT POINTS.
VERY WELL SAID.
THANKS TONS.
I understand this has been published broadly today. But it is an excellent example of part of what we've been trying to talk about:
If you've seen the story of the found young woman published elsewhere, please let me know.
Blessings,
Thanks for the ping!
Illustrations don't prove anything, and all analogies break down at some point, but instead of posting the whole story, I will respond to the key question presented:
Would this new Bible reader find anything to indicate that the miracles and gifts of the Spirit ceased after the early Church?
ONLY if the person read the bible with logic and common sense in mind, and without a pentecostal prejudice. In Acts we are told of the account of Simon the Sorcerer. He was taught the gospel by Philip, of whom there is no reason to believe that he didn't have spiritual gifts. Yet he didn't ask Philip to give him spiritual gifts. Why ? Acts 8:13 says it was because he saw that through the laying on of the apostle's hands the Holy Ghost (miraculous measure, that is USN) was given, he offered them (the apostles USN) money. It is a simple logic syllogy. IF the apostles were the only one's to be able to bestow miraculous gifts, and the apostle's are dead now, then there are no more miraculous gifts. (I'm not saying there are no gifts at all. For example, God makes certain people good speakers, or others teachers, or others given to hospitality, etc.)
These people have a conviction based not on Scripture but on their own bereft experience.
This is quite a strange comment considering up to this point all you have done is tell a story.
A more immediate purpose for signs and wonders, however, is shown in the above text. The miracles authenticated the message of salvation through Jesus Christ, which Paul preached to the Gentiles [Bold & color emphasis added by Qx]. At that moment those heathen did not even know Paul would be a writer of New Testament books. It was the message that gripped their hearts— but only after the miraculous had gained their attention! [emphasis Qx added above and below wherever bold or color is] We preach the very same message to the people of our day. Miracles are needed as much today as they were then.
I agree that one of the purposes of the miraculous gifts was to authenticate the message. No, it doesn't matter whether they came before or after the message. I don't see why you want to make a big deal of that point. We do preach the same message today, but guess what ? Whereas unbelievers today have the benefit of the written word, the people back then did not. So miracles are NOT needed as much today as they were then.
2. 1 Corinthians 13:8-13
I have decided not to argue 1 Cor 13 with you, as it will do us no mutual good. It isn't needed anyway in order to prove my case, which I have already done with the account of Simon the Sorcerer anyway.
Continued after I read the second part of your post...
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.