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To: Quix; Dr. Eckleburg; D Edmund Joaquin
I notice you have been congratulating each other on what a wonderful job you have done in vanquishing me. However, since I don't believe in simply copying other peoples work, but rather putting it into simple terms that everyone can understand, I have taken a little longer to respond to you. That, plus I am at work at the same time. In the tradition of FR, I will put your post in italics and my response in normal letters. I will also make a good effort to make this my last post on this thread

Illustrations don't prove anything, and all analogies break down at some point, but instead of posting the whole story, I will respond to the key question presented:

Would this new Bible reader find anything to indicate that the miracles and gifts of the Spirit ceased after the early Church?

ONLY if the person read the bible with logic and common sense in mind, and without a pentecostal prejudice. In Acts we are told of the account of Simon the Sorcerer. He was taught the gospel by Philip, of whom there is no reason to believe that he didn't have spiritual gifts. Yet he didn't ask Philip to give him spiritual gifts. Why ? Acts 8:13 says it was because he saw that through the laying on of the apostle's hands the Holy Ghost (miraculous measure, that is USN) was given, he offered them (the apostles USN) money. It is a simple logic syllogy. IF the apostles were the only one's to be able to bestow miraculous gifts, and the apostle's are dead now, then there are no more miraculous gifts. (I'm not saying there are no gifts at all. For example, God makes certain people good speakers, or others teachers, or others given to hospitality, etc.)

These people have a conviction based not on Scripture but on their own bereft experience.

This is quite a strange comment considering up to this point all you have done is tell a story.

A more immediate purpose for signs and wonders, however, is shown in the above text. The miracles authenticated the message of salvation through Jesus Christ, which Paul preached to the Gentiles [Bold & color emphasis added by Qx]. At that moment those heathen did not even know Paul would be a writer of New Testament books. It was the message that gripped their hearts— but only after the miraculous had gained their attention! [emphasis Qx added above and below wherever bold or color is] We preach the very same message to the people of our day. Miracles are needed as much today as they were then.

I agree that one of the purposes of the miraculous gifts was to authenticate the message. No, it doesn't matter whether they came before or after the message. I don't see why you want to make a big deal of that point. We do preach the same message today, but guess what ? Whereas unbelievers today have the benefit of the written word, the people back then did not. So miracles are NOT needed as much today as they were then.

2. 1 Corinthians 13:8-13

I have decided not to argue 1 Cor 13 with you, as it will do us no mutual good. It isn't needed anyway in order to prove my case, which I have already done with the account of Simon the Sorcerer anyway.

Continued after I read the second part of your post...

680 posted on 10/12/2004 10:02:55 AM PDT by UsnDadof8 (The groundswell of public opinion is about to hit John Kerry. And it won't be pretty)
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To: UsnDadof8; All
prove my case, which I have already done with the account of Simon the Sorcerer anyway.

WOW! WHAT A HUGE EXAMPLE OF WHOLESALE OUT OF CONTEXT and out of logic posting! Impressively off the goof-ball cliff! But, hey, when the evidence on the other side from your position is so overwhelming both in Scripture and in logic, I guess one does one's feeble best. It just boggles my mind that you'd even find a way to remotely connect that Scripture with the issue at hand! Amazing.

It boggles my mind that you sleep at nights with such . . . mental leaps being your custom. Oh, that's right, defending your tidy little boxed construction on reality helps you sleep . . . sort of.

The fact remains, that taking the Bible at face value leaves one with the inescapable [well, except for people hell-bent to be illogical and to wholesale ignore abundant evidence otherwise] conclusion that God intends for Holy Spirit to operate as demonstrated in THE MANUAL FOR THE CHURCH--THE NEW TESTAMENT.

There's not a single Scripture even hinting otherwise except for those victimized by doctrines of demons such that they shoehorn into verses vague, illogical leaps of thought to justify their unBiblical stances.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, So, believers in the early NT times needed miracles because the letters of the disciples were not broadly distributed yet? Or because the Old Testament was not sufficient? Balderdash. What illogical hogwash!

Man has not changed. Sin has not changed. Satan has not changed. Man's blindness has obviously not changed.

Modern man is not any less in desperated need to see God manifested through the power of His Spirit than was man of the first century era. Any thought otherwise is showing wholesale ignorance of man and wholesale ignorance of the spiritual warfare involved.

681 posted on 10/12/2004 10:17:11 AM PDT by Quix (PRAYERS 4 PRES, FAMILY, ADVISORS N OUR REPUBLIC IN OCT MAY BE VITALLY CRUCIAL)
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To: UsnDadof8

It's also wholesale ignorance of God's strategies and ways in reaching the lost and waging spiritual warfare in His ways on His terms.


682 posted on 10/12/2004 10:20:20 AM PDT by Quix (PRAYERS 4 PRES, FAMILY, ADVISORS N OUR REPUBLIC IN OCT MAY BE VITALLY CRUCIAL)
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To: UsnDadof8

BTW, I'm not REALLY interested in vanquishing YOU.

Just the idiotic notions the demonic forces have plagued your mind with.

I admire your persistence and pluck in a way.

It's certainly easy to care for you as someone made in God's image seeking to walk a Christian life--I think, I hope.

I'm not at all thrilled or impressed at your treatment of the DREAMS AND VISIONS thread.


683 posted on 10/12/2004 10:22:56 AM PDT by Quix (PRAYERS 4 PRES, FAMILY, ADVISORS N OUR REPUBLIC IN OCT MAY BE VITALLY CRUCIAL)
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To: UsnDadof8

Whereas unbelievers today have the benefit of the written word, the people back then did not. So miracles are NOT needed as much today as they were then.
******
ROFL!!!!!OH yeah...I'll take a few typed out words over a miracle anyday. Next heart surgery the Doc. tells me I have to have, when he says for the THIRD time, your chances are NOT good. I'll just meekly say ....Oh I'll be fine...just give me a few typed words and I won't need a miracle....I'll be fine...don't mind me...meek, humble, meek, humble. GOOD GRIEF!!! Written word over a miracle!!! My God is the Father of miracles, He sent his Son the word made flesh as a sacrifice, to manifest some those miracles as to who he was and we weren't told it was for a select group. Sorry ....my Heavenly Father has never been stingy with me when it comes to handing out miracles and its not been a few typed out words. But then I never put him in a box either, informing him what he could or couldn't do. HE can do whatever he darn well pleases....let God be true and every MAN be a liar.


707 posted on 10/12/2004 8:04:47 PM PDT by BriarBey
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