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I hated Rotk (vanity ranting thread) ((spoiler alert))
ME
| Today- december 18th, 2003
| Me
Posted on 12/18/2003 9:52:13 AM PST by Fire-Breathing_Freeper
I was soooo dissappointed with the return of the king. It started out ok (except for the first chapter) but after Gollum knoks out Sam in the craks of doom it got really weird, corny and just plain bad.
My list of reasons; 1. Everyone knew and understood Gollum/Smeagol without having or wanting to watch him murder Deagol. It was totally sick and unnecessary.
2. Frodo was somewhat 'normal' at the end of TTT, and in the beggining of ROTK Frodo is like corrupted and half dead. The transition from good to corrupted was divided in to threes instead of being smootly worked out.
3. Theoden being relctuant about comming to Gondor's aid. Then when the beacon is lit, he is like Yea, like you even have to ask me to come.
4. Everything about Denethor. Mostly bad, a little good.
5. The way Denethor treated Faramir. While it was close to the books it didn't have the same emotional feel. Alot of Rotk didn't envok the same feelings as the book did.
6. The Gollum and the lembas scene. Sam didn't have to be sent away for the effectiveness of Frodo being corrupted.
7. The women and children in Minas Tirith. It made the city look totally unpopulated.
8. When Eowyn gave Merry his armor and then she said 'why cant he fight for those he loves' She looked like it was her underlying motive. Instead of only wanting to die because Aragorn didn't love her and she thought that Aragorn might see her worth if she died in battle.
9. Arwen dying is Sauron isn't destroyed. That was so lame and unnecessary.
10. Frodo going into Shelobs lair alone. In the book it was really sweet how Frodo and Sam went in together. All the tenderness was ripped from that scene, again not envoking the same emotions.
11. Frodo ran around way too long in Shelobs lair. Ok we all know it's really a creepy place and Frodo is scared but the scene does not need to be drawn out too long.
12. How Denethor only cared that Faramir was gravely wounded because his line would end was not as good as it could ahve been. I'm not sure what could have been done differently but something should have.
13. How the dead glowed bright florescent green. And how they looked like soldiers of rohan and gondor when they were supposed to be another race.
14. Denethor at the pyre. It was a little to dramatic again not invoking the same feelings, and drawn out too long,
15. After Frodo was stung he didn't go down soon enough and it was just nasty.
16. I also thought Sam and Shelob fought too long. I think it would have been just as affective if a third of it was cut.
17. When gandalf and Pippin were talking about dying. I loved the scene in and of itself, but just moments before Gandalf was the feerless leader and was directing the men to stand there ground. Then he like sitting in despair and saying death is not that bad. I'm not sure it needed to be there, at all or at least not in that part.
18. It slightly bugged me when the dead army went into Minas Tirith. Slightly.
19. The battle between the witchking and Eowyn. It wasn't one sided enough. and again didn't envoke the same feelings or odds of winning.
20. The orcs in the tower died too quick.
21. When Sam finds Frodo in the tower, all the tenderness and love that was shown in the book was trashed and what was left not worthy of Frodo and Sam.
22. How It was strongly suggested that if Frodo and Sam were hiding behind the rocks that they would not be scene. totally contradicting what Saruman said in fotr.
23. How Frodo was so weary he couldnt walk and then suddenyl gets up and starts running. If we just staggered that would have been fine.
24. Gollum fought with the invisible Frodo for way too long, It made me want to laugh, which again didn't envoke the same feelings as the book.
25. Gollum in the lava.
26. Sauron died too slowly.
27. The orc armies being swallowed up.
28. When the eagles were carring Frodo and they were showing him flying over the lava, That was sooo cheesy and lame! I think that was one of the things that bugged me most.
29. How Arwen showed up. It could and should have been done more ceremoniously.
30. Gandalf's wagon
31. Bilbo looked like an orc.
32. The Grey Havens looked animated and fake.
33. Frodo didn't dry when he left his friends.
TOPICS: TV/Movies; The Hobbit Hole
KEYWORDS: lordoftherings; returnoftheking
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To: HairOfTheDog
Yeah here's a guy who had his finger bit off in Mt Doom
Got stabbed by a Nazgul
Has fought the single worst addiction on Middle Earth (addiction to the One Ring)
Has been in pretty much constant pain for the last 4 years
And he's supposed to be sad to leave all that behind?! Yeah I'm sure he'll miss his friends and all but all the other stuff he's walking away from would make me run and grab the plank on my way into the ship, if there was ever a taco stand that needed blowing for Frodo it was all of Middle Earth.
61
posted on
12/19/2003 8:49:55 AM PST
by
discostu
(that's a waste of a perfectly good white boy)
To: discostu
I thought he did show sadness at leaving.... or at least telling his friends that he was leaving... when he gave the book to Sam and in the quietness that was about him. I thought it was wonderfully done by Elijah, as was the peace he felt about the decision to leave... He was a great Frodo.
62
posted on
12/19/2003 8:54:10 AM PST
by
HairOfTheDog
(‘I have quite finished, Sam,’ said Frodo. ‘The last pages are for you.’)
To: HairOfTheDog
There was sadness but it was mixed with hope. He'd saved the world and now was going to get the deepest of the wounds healed, he was going to finally get the reward he'd earned. Elijah was great, couldn't ask for a better Frodo.
63
posted on
12/19/2003 8:56:53 AM PST
by
discostu
(that's a waste of a perfectly good white boy)
To: discostu
1. i don't think that was a good enough reason to include the scene, and I think it showed. I think that is why they did it, Smeagol telling Frodo without having to see the murder would have been just as affective without having to watch it. Did you really like that scene?
2. Ok I didn't think of that. thanks.
3. true but It was like with the Ents not going to war. Just a little change to see if he can get the 'already read the books audience' to be in supence.
4. your right
5. again
6. Frodo having his finger bitten off didn't have anything to do with him being corrupted.
7. Staying out of the way. Like leaving? Then they could have showed their joyful return and Aragorn as their King. Like leaving and coming back to a new world.
8. Yes, but it was not the same as the book, and I didn't like it. It waist necessary. Eowyn fighting out of despair is better, in my opinion.
9. True, but it didn't have to be dramatized the way it was. Having Arwen killed by orcs or sauron when Rivendell is eventually over run is just a affective.
10. It should have been. Part of my disappointment, and after all the revews it got about how close to the book it stayed.
11. It was like a horror movie.
12. Ok I can see it! But then why did Gandalf say your father loves you Faramir he will remember it before the end? Uh another forgotten line with no conclusion.
13. I agree 100% with you there, again never thought of it
14. But, everyone must feel the same as Me. (entitlement moment) Ok I'm better now.
15. it seemed longer, I closed my eyes
16. really are you sure?
17. Ok I loved that scene and now it makes science with the rest of the movie.
18. Yes and they went through the walls. Beware the Listerine sea
19. watching it I felt like he could have killed her any second he felt like it, and then didn't even notice before she stabbed him in the face.
20. not real time ok I can handle that
21. Are you agreeing?
22. i just didn't like the scene, but it was necessary to show some of their danger
23. It made me think how bizarre it was instead of Wow Frodo is so brave thats all.
24. It was longer than 6 seconds, maybe not as long as I thought
25. He wasn't showing any pain, even thought the precious is being destroyed, and it was really sick. I felt like alot of rotk was turned into a horror movie.
26. It was weird. I thought Pj was trying to see if he could get the book crowd to be surprised
27. something had to be done. I thought it should have been like in the prologue in fotr, just king of falling down and dying, I know he wasn't as strong, but it would have been better.
28. it did but it was weird!! I don't like watching people sleep and it was too long. Wouldn't you have rather seen the eagled flying back to gondor and had a nice aerial shot of the battle and the city? i would have
29. ok fine
30. No he didn't it looked like a prairie schooner
31. he did too. It reminded me of one on a trading card I have. I'll see if I can find it.
32.The buildings were ok, the ship and sunset were not. I don't see why they couldn't have built a real ship and sailed it into a real sunset. I would have paid extra
33. He cried during the rest of the three films. He was almost gleeful to be rid of them.
64
posted on
12/19/2003 9:03:57 AM PST
by
Fire-Breathing_Freeper
(There can be no triumph without loss, No victory without suffering, No Freedom without sacrifice)
To: HairOfTheDog
Ok true I shouldn't have voiced my complaint twice. I didn't think of the impact it had on you. I am sorry.
But it wasn't my fault you were pinged or commented.
65
posted on
12/19/2003 9:06:05 AM PST
by
Fire-Breathing_Freeper
(There can be no triumph without loss, No victory without suffering, No Freedom without sacrifice)
To: HairOfTheDog
You are so right. See what I mean, I never thought of it that way. It is now much better than it was before.
66
posted on
12/19/2003 9:09:05 AM PST
by
Fire-Breathing_Freeper
(There can be no triumph without loss, No victory without suffering, No Freedom without sacrifice)
To: HairOfTheDog
You are so right. See what I mean, I never thought of it that way. It is now much better than it was before.
67
posted on
12/19/2003 9:09:16 AM PST
by
Fire-Breathing_Freeper
(There can be no triumph without loss, No victory without suffering, No Freedom without sacrifice)
To: Fire-Breathing_Freeper
Perhaps Donald Trump's new television show will be more your speed.
68
posted on
12/19/2003 9:17:41 AM PST
by
Samwise
(There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil.)
To: Fire-Breathing_Freeper
I deleted everything where we agreed, but I kept the numbers for reference purposes.
1. i don't think that was a good enough reason to include the scene, and I think it showed. I think that is why they did it, Smeagol telling Frodo without having to see the murder would have been just as affective without having to watch it. Did you really like that scene?
One of the first rules of movie making: exposition is DULL action is not. Never make exposition when action can do the same thing. Having Smeagol tell Frodo would have been boooooring, and also would have planted seeds of doubt in Frodo's head ("yeah Frodo of corse I like you and all and I'm really happy to be helping you out on this quest, here let me tell you about my first encounter with the ring when I strangled my dear friend Deagol, don't worry though I'm not trying to kill you"). I did like the scene, I think it served a very useful dramatic purpose of of making Smeagol again a sympathetic character only to rip it away.
3. true but It was like with the Ents not going to war. Just a little change to see if he can get the 'already read the books audience' to be in supence.
It's not about keeping the people that have already read the book in suspense. It's about giving each character an arc so they can develop as people and allow tension to build and release properly in the movie. The holy grails of movie-dom are pacing and character development.
6. Frodo having his finger bitten off didn't have anything to do with him being corrupted.
Frodo losing his finger has EVERYTHING to do with him being corrupted. If the ring doesn't corrupt him he doesn't spend all that time standing there not throwing the thing in which give Golum the chance to get in there, without the corruption he never puts the ring on for Golum to bite it off. Without the corruption he walks out of that cave with 10 fingers.
7. Staying out of the way. Like leaving? Then they could have showed their joyful return and Aragorn as their King. Like leaving and coming back to a new world.
They did show their joyful return AFTER he returned. The streets were crowded with civilian before the fight (no Aragorn) and after the fight (with Aragorn). The only time there was a lack of women and children visible in the streets of Minas Tirith was DURING the fight (mostly no Aragorn).
8. Yes, but it was not the same as the book, and I didn't like it. It waist necessary. Eowyn fighting out of despair is better, in my opinion.
I actually never liked that in the books. People fighting out of despair don't fight well, people fighting hoping to die fight even worse. In order for her to be heroic in the end it makes more sense if she's fighting for the same reason the men are fighting.
9. True, but it didn't have to be dramatized the way it was. Having Arwen killed by orcs or sauron when Rivendell is eventually over run is just a affective.
Except of course Rivendell isn't eventually over run so that scene could never possibly happen. It was a simple matter of Elrond trying to convince Aragorn to take the mantle that was his. Aragorn's defense mechanism was his love of elves in general and one elf in particular, Elrond drove it all home "we're leaving, she's not, if you don't become the king you were born to be she'll die, stop being a pansy, here's the sword, go do what we both know you have to and save my daughter's life you shlub"
10. It should have been. Part of my disappointment, and after all the revews it got about how close to the book it stayed.
No it shouldn't have been a word for word translation. Being a full time geek I hang out on the convention circuit, I'm friends with a few authors some of them have also written scripts (TV but the ideas hold), one of the first things they'll tell you is that the things you do to make a good book are the same list of things you AVOID to make a good script. The mediums are completely different and a word for word translation would have made for three terrible unwatchable movies (actually probably 6, 200 minutes isn't nearly enough for that many words).
11. It was like a horror movie.
It was a scary part in a fantasy movie. Movies other than horror are allowed to have scary parts.
12. Ok I can see it! But then why did Gandalf say your father loves you Faramir he will remember it before the end? Uh another forgotten line with no conclusion.
Not at all, Gandalf has been around a while and knows how people work, he knows that somewhere inside Denethor loves his child and given long enough will remember that. And he wound up being right on the money, when he pops Denethor and shakes him out of his psychosis and Denethor's love for his son comes flooding back and he flees from the horror of what he's done (killed one son, tried a few times to kill the other and doomed the empire of Gondor and possibly the entire race of man).
15. it seemed longer, I closed my eyes
That's called dramatic tension. By holding that close shot and using very little sound PJ took away the audiences innate time keeping ability and makes the scene seem longer than it is. I cheated, because of work and personal schedules I saw ROTK both wednesday and thursday and read your stuff in between, I did some second counting during a few of the scenes.
16. really are you sure?
Short fight, but for this PJ used another movie trick: lots of eb and flow and many fast cuts. By having it cycle quickly between Sam getting the upper hand and Shelob getting the upper leg and back again it makes it seem like a lot happened and so that must take a long time. In the end I think Sam made 5 or 6 swings of the sword and two kicks at Shelob's eyes.
18. Yes and they went through the walls. Beware the Listerine sea
chuckle.
19. watching it I felt like he could have killed her any second he felt like it, and then didn't even notice before she stabbed him in the face.
He could have killed her anytime, except he's a bad guy and likes to do things mean so he decided to choke her to death thus giving Merry time to stab him. Bud guys must always pause at the stupidest possible moment, it's a rule even Tolkien didn't violate.
21. Are you agreeing?
No I think there was plenty of tenderness and love in that scene, right up until Frodo found out Sam had the ring and the addiction reared it's ugly head again.
22. i just didn't like the scene, but it was necessary to show some of their danger
Yeah it brought back Sauron as a threat, at that point with Suaron looking the other way and the orcs gone it looks like clear sailing for Frodo and Sam, swinging the eye around says "no it isn't clear sailing", and for those that haven't read the books it's even better because it creates a false threat since at that point Sauron is no longer a threat to them but Gollum is
23. It made me think how bizarre it was instead of Wow Frodo is so brave thats all.
Made me think he'd gotten his second wind and hope had been restored
24. It was longer than 6 seconds, maybe not as long as I thought
I might have been counting slow, could have been 8, of course with the cut away the scene becomes longer because there's a presumption of simultaneous action. Another movie trick.
25. He wasn't showing any pain, even thought the precious is being destroyed, and it was really sick. I felt like alot of rotk was turned into a horror movie.
the precious wasn't being destroyed, not yet anyway. He was long dead before the heat even made the writing appear. It was sick, Gollum was sick. He was dying with precious in his hand, the only thing he'd really wanted for hundreds of years was his in his final moments. Really if you've ever known drug addicts Gollum and Frodo in the last two movies are super spot on portrayals, I've seen those looks I've heard those words.
26. It was weird. I thought Pj was trying to see if he could get the book crowd to be surprised
Suprised by what? He was just holding the dramatic moment. Almost 10 hours worth of movie was leading up to the point of finally knocking that tower down, when you make people wait that long to knock a building down you don't just obliterate it and move on, you give them a chance to cheer
27. something had to be done. I thought it should have been like in the prologue in fotr, just king of falling down and dying, I know he wasn't as strong, but it would have been better.
But then he'd being doing the same thing twice, a real no-no in movie magic. Also that was how Sauron didn't really die, by cleaving a hole in the earth and swallowing Sauron's works and minions it showed he was really dead this time.
28. it did but it was weird!! I don't like watching people sleep and it was too long. Wouldn't you have rather seen the eagled flying back to gondor and had a nice aerial shot of the battle and the city? i would have
We'd already had aerial shots of the areas of battle, why show the same thing again.
30. No he didn't it looked like a prairie schooner
It looked like the same wagon with the cover on, most wagons are convertables you know.
31. he did too. It reminded me of one on a trading card I have. I'll see if I can find it.
Not on a bet, if nothing else he was dressed to nice to be an orc.
32.The buildings were ok, the ship and sunset were not. I don't see why they couldn't have built a real ship and sailed it into a real sunset. I would have paid extra
But you don't have the option to pay extra, they don't set movie prices by the movie. Why go through all the trouble of building a long boat for one scene when almost everything else in elf country was CGI.
33. He cried during the rest of the three films. He was almost gleeful to be rid of them.
He wasn't gleeful to get rid of his friends, he was gleeful to get rid of his pain. Remember he was still suffering from the stab of the witch king (four years later) and that's one of the things the elves were going to cure. Frodo had seen the best and worst Middle Earth had to offer, part of the worst stabbed him and nearly turned him into a wraith, another part of the worst had bit him finger off. That's one of the things that was being established in Bag End, that Frodo still hadn't emotionally recovered and couldn't emotionally recover in the Shire, he's seen too much and been wounded too deeply. If you see it again pay close attention to Frodo's monologue as he's finishing the book, it sounds like a suicide note. Those are the options Frodo has at that point, two ways to end the pain: with the elves and with a rope. Part of his glee is that he's going to end the pain and live.
69
posted on
12/19/2003 10:05:52 AM PST
by
discostu
(that's a waste of a perfectly good white boy)
To: Samwise
I thought it was too drawn out. They could have cut some stuff in half and used the time for character devlopment.
70
posted on
12/19/2003 10:17:55 AM PST
by
Fire-Breathing_Freeper
(There can be no triumph without loss, No victory without suffering, No Freedom without sacrifice)
To: discostu
1. It was still awful. I never want to see nayone murdered like that again.
3. ok fine, Theoden was really great, he kind of held everything together. I wish there had been more time for him to 'explore it' it kind of seemed like a lost thread.
6. well that was ok anyway. It just made me want to laugh instead of feeling the the fate of Middle Earth hangs in the balance.
7. I guess it also showed more importance to win the battle.
8. She wasn't supposed to be a hero. Pj femenised her role.
9. your right, I hated how Aragorn was a wimp when it came to that. besides Elrond didn't say Sauron was killing Arwen, just that she would die if he failed. which was true.
10. Will you read the chapter in shelobs lair? it was so sweet and hobbitish. I just loved it and It was done differently, not that it was that awful, but it wasn't what i was hoping for and the replacement wasn't . I know it would have been awful if they had done it word for word, but fotr and ttt had the same overall plot, themes, and key scenes, i felt like rokt skimped on themes and key scenes portrayed correctly.
11. i'll get used to it.
12. Oh, ok so he finally forgave Faramir when he was dead, and but in his own twisted way had to do all this crazy stuff because he was crazy. Maybe to prove to him self that he was a good father and he was justified.
15. ok fine that was also necessary after all your supposed to think he is dying. still it was icky.
16. Yea i'm mean it is a giant spider. i'll try to not let that bug me.
18. It was weird!!!
19. Alright PJ went for the bad guy is stupid so good can win. I think thats ok, i'll have to see it again.
21. it wasn't as good as it could have been. Wait what was I expecting!
22. Yea like how Frodo said can you protect me from your self? Like to deepen the plot.
23. Didn't know there was a second wind.
24. It made me want to laugh! I have no idea how the could have done it better but it shouldn't have made me laugh(i wasn't the only one who thought that)
25. right, but it was sick. It's like PJ had to add all this sick stuff just because instead of doing it another way. Just because he could.
26. perhaps it showed how strong he really was. Since Sauron has no character devlopment. In fact its only the ring that really has a character.
27. Did the tower collasp into the ground too? then it would have been like Sauron killed them instead of unexplained holes.
28. fine they should have just skipped the whole thing. and skipped to Frodo in bed. It was kind of like when they brought him into Rivendell, that was weird too.
30. it was still funny.
31.if this orc was dresses like a hobbit, was cleaner, lighter skinned, less evil he would resemble Bilbo. I think 
32. the rest of elf country didn't look fake.
33. This has been your best point yet. They did not talk enough about frodo's pain. I wish they had used the actual dialog from the book, "I thought so too once. But I have been too deeply hurt. I tried to save the shire, and it has been saved but not for me, it must often be so. Someone must give them, loose them so that others may keep them." That would have made it better.
71
posted on
12/19/2003 11:05:46 AM PST
by
Fire-Breathing_Freeper
(There can be no triumph without loss, No victory without suffering, No Freedom without sacrifice)
To: Fire-Breathing_Freeper
1. It was still awful. I never want to see nayone murdered like that again.
Well it wasn't supposed to be pleasant. LOTR isn't a happy story filled with butterflies and silly skiping. It's about the ultimate battle of good vs evil and some nasty stuff happens along the way.
3. ok fine, Theoden was really great, he kind of held everything together. I wish there had been more time for him to 'explore it' it kind of seemed like a lost thread.
A lot of characters kind of get lost in the shuffle, that's because there's about 20 "main" characters in the story, with the running total currently standing at 200 minutes that's 10 minute per important character scatter throughout the 3 movies. Most of them probably deserved at least 20 minutes but if PJ had done that it would be a six parter and we'd be arguing about the first half of TTT right now... not that I'm against that but it was hard enough for PJ to shake 300 mil out to make the movies no way he could have gotten 600 mil.
6. well that was ok anyway. It just made me want to laugh instead of feeling the the fate of Middle Earth hangs in the balance.
A little laughter isn't necessarily a bad thing, breaking the tension in a movie is as important as building the tension. Keep it too high for too long and the audience burns out (my wife actually thought the movie was too tense)
7. I guess it also showed more importance to win the battle.
I think of it as more of a nod to realism, in real battle the non-combatants hunker down and pray and most importantly they stay the hell out of the way.
8. She wasn't supposed to be a hero. Pj femenised her role.
She killed the witch king in the books too. PJ personalized her role and made it more sensible. It also makes it more understandable when she takes up with Faromir. The role of Eowyn in the books really showed that Tolkien didn't grock women too well.
9. your right, I hated how Aragorn was a wimp when it came to that. besides Elrond didn't say Sauron was killing Arwen, just that she would die if he failed. which was true.
Exactly, that's an important part of the Strider/ Aragorn arc (even in the books, signified by him going through a name change), he's into the Ranger life because it has no responsibilities. He hangs out in the forest, practices his archery, every now and then goes to Rivendell for a bath and some quality time with the elves, always very careful to stay far away from Gondor and the responsibility it represents in his life.
10. Will you read the chapter in shelobs lair? it was so sweet and hobbitish. I just loved it and It was done differently, not that it was that awful, but it wasn't what i was hoping for and the replacement wasn't . I know it would have been awful if they had done it word for word, but fotr and ttt had the same overall plot, themes, and key scenes, i felt like rokt skimped on themes and key scenes portrayed correctly.
It was sweet and hobbitish in the books and scary and dramatic in the movie, I see no problem here. Movies have different needs than books. I don't think ROTK skimped at all, PJ just saw different scenes as key than you did. I expected that from early on when PJ made it clear the scouring was out, I always saw the scoring as a key to the story PJ didn't. If I could get people to cough up 300 mil to make a trilogy that had no good reason to expect success I could focus 90% of the third movie on the scouring if I wanted to.
12. Oh, ok so he finally forgave Faramir when he was dead, and but in his own twisted way had to do all this crazy stuff because he was crazy. Maybe to prove to him self that he was a good father and he was justified.
No, when he had the all important moment of clarity (seeing that in fact Faromir was alive) Denethor remembered his love for his son (just like Gandalf predicted), unfortunately at that same moment Denethor is on fire and also remembers all the horrible things he's done to his son (he's sent Faromir off to die like 3 times) and his country. Listen to what Denethor says when he "finds out" Faromir is dead (right after the horse brings him back), he does that stuff not to be a good father but to fail at everything, he says it straight up that his line has ended and ended in failure un able even to protect the nation they were to be stewards of. Then he orders everybody to abondon their posts and flee. He's a guy that somewhere along the lines decided he wasn't up to the task (probably when he learned of Boromirs death) and is now showing the world just how horrible he truly is.
15. ok fine that was also necessary after all your supposed to think he is dying. still it was icky.
It should be icky. Spiders are icky, most people don't like them, more so when Tolkien was writing the books. They're one of the creatures in this world that give people the heaby jeabies just by being alive (along with snakes and bats).
19. Alright PJ went for the bad guy is stupid so good can win. I think thats ok, i'll have to see it again.
It also give Merry a chance to some real heroism, he's seen a Nazgul up close before, and yet he's willing to stab the thing in the leg drawing it's attention in a desperate and probably doomed attempt to save Eowyn's life.
21. it wasn't as good as it could have been. Wait what was I expecting!
That's not what I said. There's was TONS of tenderness and love, it was EXACTLY as good as it could have been. You're original statement that there was no tendderness and love was simply WRONG at it's face. The tenderness and love was there, built, established, then got crushed under the evil of the ring.
22. Yea like how Frodo said can you protect me from your self? Like to deepen the plot.
I'm not sure about deepening the plot, it's simply something a movie of this type needs to have, especially near the end. The good guys need to be under constant threat in the eyes of the audience, even if that threat is false if has to be there at that point in a dramatic movie. If twenty minute before the climax everybody in the audience thinks the good guys now have a cake walk and the ending is merely a technicality you've just lost your audience.
23. Didn't know there was a second wind.
Don't watch a lot of sports huh? Looked to me exactly like a hockey player in the 5th over time, guy is leaning on his knees trying not to fall over dead before the faceoff then he gets the puck and streaks down the ice trying to score.
24. It made me want to laugh! I have no idea how the could have done it better but it shouldn't have made me laugh(i wasn't the only one who thought that)
Didn't make me laugh. I think you're just giggle happy.
25. right, but it was sick. It's like PJ had to add all this sick stuff just because instead of doing it another way. Just because he could.
It was the right thing to do. Gollum was a sick fellow and had been for a long time. It was the final demonstration of the horrible power of the ring. PJ was getting the message across, not just being sick for fun, some messages are unpleasant in their delivery those are usually the important ones in life.
26. perhaps it showed how strong he really was. Since Sauron has no character devlopment. In fact its only the ring that really has a character.
I think it was primarily catharsis for the audience. Kind of like having Roy Schieder take the time to say "smile you son of a bitch" before blowing up the shark, give the audience something to cheer.
27. Did the tower collasp into the ground too? then it would have been like Sauron killed them instead of unexplained holes.
I don't think we see what the tower collapsed into, the black gate and other fortification winds up in the ground though.
28. fine they should have just skipped the whole thing. and skipped to Frodo in bed. It was kind of like when they brought him into Rivendell, that was weird too.
If you skip the whole thing then how do they get rescued? You can't leave the hero of your peice stranded on a rock island in the lava then put him in a comfy bed in Gondor, that would be really bad story telling.
30. it was still funny.
It was a covered wagon, nothing funny about it. You don't live that far north of me, surely you've seen covered wagons before.
31.if this orc was dresses like a hobbit, was cleaner, lighter skinned, less evil he would resemble Bilbo. I think
don't forget shorter. In other words if you took this orc and took away everything that made him an orc he'd be an elf and then if you shrunk him he'd be a hobbit. Which isn't that far off from the history of Middle Earth any way.
32. the rest of elf country didn't look fake.
I think Rivendell looked about the same. The CGI could have been crisper but i get the feeling they were trying to put a dream like quality to the elf places. The the elves really weren't a part of Middle Earth.
33. This has been your best point yet. They did not talk enough about frodo's pain. I wish they had used the actual dialog from the book, "I thought so too once. But I have been too deeply hurt. I tried to save the shire, and it has been saved but not for me, it must often be so. Someone must give them, loose them so that others may keep them." That would have made it better.
The original dialog might have been better. What Frodo said was still pretty powerful, even the second time I saw it I expected him to kill himself right when he was finishing the book, it's just got such a heavy suicide note feel.
I hope you're enjoying the conversation, I certainly am.
72
posted on
12/19/2003 11:46:10 AM PST
by
discostu
(that's a waste of a perfectly good white boy)
To: Fire-Breathing_Freeper
I just saw it a few hours ago. Here's my observations...
First, I would see it again. The effects and scenery was breathtaking. I do have several complaints and likes, though.
I was really upset they didn't show or in anyway talk about the Scouring of the Shire. We see the old man scowling at the 4 hobbits return, and then they're back in the Green Dragon as if they (to the hobbits left behind) never left. Sam going up to Rosie in the inn almost seemed put in there to assure everyone that Frodo and Sam weren't fags but just loved each other platonically. And Merry was supposed to be later known as "Merriadoc the Magnificent" in the Shire. Sam was to be Mayor about 5 times. The movie needed a better vehicle to show how our four hobbits grew in stature in the eyes of the Shire folk!
Minas Tirith was supposed to be depopulated of all women and children (by order of Denethor). Pippin had met a soldier who introduced him to his son, who Pippin befriended and was only one of a few children left in the city. I think they had too many women and children there in the movie.
The White Tree in blossom again in the crowning scene. OK, that was not bad, actually. But it was dead, and Aragon was supposed to find a sapling in the King's Seat on the mountaintop.
When Sam returns to Rosie after Frodo left on the ship--wasn't Sam supposed to be living in Bag End? Frodo left it to him in his will. Was that house different--not Bag End? It seemed so to me.
The Oliphants were so big in the battle scenes, but later when we see Pippin find Merry, the dead oliphant is about 10 times smaller, almost regular elephant size.
The Men of Dunedain were missing. In the book, Aragon had about 25 fellow Rangers join him and go through the Mountain of the Dead with him. I wish they had included them.
In the book, after Sauraman's defeat at Isengard, there is a very heavy feeling of urgency to assemble Rohan and go to the aid of Gondor. Instead we see feasting and Merry and Pippin dancing on tables and Theoden vetching about Gondor not coming to his aid.
Legolas climbing up on the Oliphant was awesome. However, didn't we see a similar scene in Star Wars "The Empire Strikes Back" with Luke climbing up a land walker the same way? Still, a very cool scene. Legolas was very well played in all the movies. Orlando Bloom did an Oscar winning job!
The whole Hidden Staircase and Shelob's lair was awesome, but I would have left Sam going in with Frodo, too.
The movie didn't show all the orc's fight over Frodo's mithril mail, just two of them fighting over it. The whole scene made little sense to those who didn't read the book. It was too fast.
I thought Aragon was every inch the King. The movies showed his growth into the role very well. It was just different from the book, but played out well here.
As I digest what I saw today, I'll probably change some of my initial opinions.
To: Fire-Breathing_Freeper; HairOfTheDog; 2Jedismom
When Sam finds Frodo in the tower, all the tenderness and love I don't know about the book, but if Sam and Frodo got any more "loving and tender" in the movie, they would have started humping each other. They got just a LITTLE too close for comport a number of times. I was just waiting for them to start kissing.
Now as to my view on the movie (I have never read the books mind you) I think they should have done one of 2 things. EIther cut a lot of the crap between the start of the movie and the battle at Gondor, or make 2 movies out of ROTK. They kept the normally slow pace leading up to the battle at Gondor, but then after that, it was like they had to cram 3 hours worth of movie into 1 and a half. The Battle at Gondor and Mordor were WAAAAAAAAAY too short. They took forever to get to them, then they just breeze through them. I went for what I thought was going to be an awesome war movie. Then after the Gondor battle they had to hurry and get Frodo to Mordor, get the riders to Mordor to make a diversion, get the ring to the fire, get frodo and sam saved, get Aragorn crowned as king, get Aragorn and Arwen together (which it do agree it was hardly made a big deal when she came), get the hobbits back to the shire, get sam married, get Frodo and Bilbo on the ship..... It just went too fast.
74
posted on
12/19/2003 8:39:43 PM PST
by
Texaggie79
(Did I just say that?)
To: discostu
No kingly bearing?! Let's see Aragorn: Convinced Gandalf there is still hope Frodo can succeed (more than once) I don't think Eru/Iluvatar would be very happy seeing that one of his maiar had to be prodded to hope by a man. It is another example of how the characters were diminished in the movie.
Convinced Theoden that he must come to the aid of Gondor
Don't you think Strider could have done the same thing? What did you see about Aragorn in this movie that made him different than any of the other movies? He is exactly the same to me.
Theoden is the reason Aragorn's shortcomings were so pronounced. Watch the way Theoden rides a horse, the way he stands, his speech to his men. He is forceful. He is decisive. He exudes nobility and he commands respect by the strength of his personality. He is the King.
Even with the crown on his head Aragorn lacks the forceful, decisive, commanding speech of a king. He looks furtively toward Gandalf. He looks lost, like a fish out of water. A king is someone who, by his very being commands the respect of all and without uttering a word, can rouse his army to follow him to the death.
Get's the army out of the mountain
"What say you?... What say you?" That's telling them ghosties. Eowyn could have done a better job commanding them.
Come up with the insane plan to distract Sauron
Insane plans do not a king make.
Give the rousing speech to keep the ranks from breaking when the orcs comes out
My son, who loves the movie, said that after listening to that speech and had he been one of those men, he would have been riding off to the next bathroom -- in Rivendale.
Exactly what were you expecting for kingly bearing?
Bearing has less to do with special effects and more to do with the unspoken affect on those around him. A kingly air, deportment, mein, manner, attitude and demeanor of nobility. He should be regal, august, and imposing. Today the buzz word is "gravitas." The Aragorn of this movie has no more weight than any of the other main characters including the hobbits.
Was he supposed to get taller have his voice shift down an octave and begin to glow from his flesh.
You've been watching too many "He-Man" type cartoons. Standing a little straighter, speaking distinctly (no mumbling), and not being so tentative in dealing with new situations would have helped. Maybe a few less glances over at Gandalf and certainly Viggo consulting Bernard Hill as to how to appear as a king would have helped as well.
Starting just prior to the battle of Helm's Deep Aragorn begins to transform to a leader of men,
Perhaps I'm mistaken, I thought he had already been a leader of the fellowship, that is why leading men did not seem like such a huge step from his Strider activities to me.
Theoden noticed who it was that led the charge out of the citadel and stopped the orcish advance long enough for Gandalf to save the day, surprised you missed it.
What I missed was him saying "Anduril! Anduril for the Dunedain!," lifting up the reforged shards, and hearing "Anduril! Anduril goes to war. The Blade that was Broken shines again!" With Aragorn spurring on men, not just a dwarf into the thick of the scattering orcs. Ahhh, what a wonderful picture it would have been. Needless to say, the less said about TTT the better.
I've never said Aragorn wasn't a brave character. He was brave even as Strider when he took on the black riders including the Witch King. A king should be brave, but he should also be more. It is the weight of that "more" that Aragorn is missing. Frodo is brave, Merry is brave, Pippin is brave, Samwise the brave certainly is brave, but none of them have the stature of the King of men. He must be more. Not just a brave man, he should have out shone Theoden. He didn't.
75
posted on
12/19/2003 8:55:44 PM PST
by
Waryone
To: Fire-Breathing_Freeper
Yes. This is just my opinion. I don't think less of anyone who liked it, and I really want to. I wanted input from those of you who liked it.You've touched on an interesting point here. Nearly everyone I know who dislikes the series don't think that the people who do like it are worng or bad, just baffled at what the raving masses see that they somehow don't. On other hand, for those that did like the movie, those that don't are somehow out of touch or clueless.
It's ironic, since most of those same people would have said the genuine Tolkien fans were the clueless ones just 3 years ago. Jackson has taken the series and, in filming it, has removed it from the realm of the esoteric and planted it firmly in the realm of the popular.
Like 'well it was OK for this to happen because it did this and that'. I am allowed to have a opinion, am I not? I wasn't insulting you, the movie or anyone. I just want to understand the things I disliked and find out how others viewed and liked them.
I want to understand those things, too. It always seems a cop-out to me when someone (as many do) give the answer that "It had to be changed in places, because its a movie and movies are different from books." To me, that's one aspect of the Big Media Lie: "We can't give the context of the President's quote, because it's televsion, not a press conference, and folks just won't pay attention to something on the TV that long." That's spin justifying spin.
Film is one media to tell a story. Books are another. Radio broadcasts are yet another. There are many ways to tell the truth of an event or story. You may have to do without visuals if Gandalf confronts Denethor on audio tape, but you can still imagine the confrontation if the description provided to you is the same as what Tolkien wrote in the story. Where is the need to change who Denethor is simply because the character appears on celluloid and not on paper?
Even most fans of the film that are familiar with the books seem to agree that the movies are at its best when they hew most closely to Tolkien's text, and are least effective when they stray. That the ignorant won't mind because they don't know the story sounds a lot like P.T. Barnum's old adage. (I'll let folks figure that one out on their own.) At its kindest, it could be said that "what they don't know won't hurt them."
In other words, the fans that are most disappointed are those that were promised Tolkien's Lord of the Rings and were given something quite clearly different. And they are disappointed because they know the story and they know what they are missing-- and what's been changed.
In fact, these same fans were willing to compromise: they understood from the start that there would be no Scouring of the Shire and no Tom Bombadil. But no fan I know would have ever agree to Arargorn's trip over a cliff. A movie where Denethor is a tyrant and must be beaten(!) by Gandalf(!!!). Or a movie where The Ents are no longer shepherds of the forest who decide for themselves to go to war, but must somehow be coached or tricked instead. That's what people find so inexplicable. Did it really have to be that way?
76
posted on
12/19/2003 11:33:22 PM PST
by
BradyLS
(DO NOT FEED THE BEARS!)
To: HairOfTheDog
I could convince you that you would like all the scenes I like if you could only think like me. But I don't want to pollute my mind with all the garbage you wrote in order to do that. In the process.... I risk having my energy and joy sucked out and digested by you. I love talking about this subject with others, but I don't have to give you the attention you demand.You do understand that you inserted yourself into a thread that was titled "I hated ROTK?" Surely, you must have known that your unusually delicate feelings would risk being upset if you wandered in to such a thread? You should tread more carefully in the future.
77
posted on
12/19/2003 11:45:42 PM PST
by
BradyLS
(DO NOT FEED THE BEARS!)
To: LadyDoc
I was comforted by your comments in Post 10. I too, find myself trying to figure out the changes etc. I love these books and am very grateful to PJ for the movies, but for a book lover some additions and/or omissions can be disconcerting or disappointing.
Fortunately, after seeing the EE's of TTT and FotR, I watched RotK with lots of hope that things I missed will be in the EE. And as you mentioned, some of the initial disappointment fades with further viewings.
Thanks for your comments, it expressed my sentiments perfectly.
To: BradyLS
I was pinged to it dear.... . Read the first five posts. And that I was pinged every time I responded.... Like now.
79
posted on
12/20/2003 4:45:45 AM PST
by
HairOfTheDog
(‘I have quite finished, Sam,’ said Frodo. ‘The last pages are for you.’)
To: BradyLS
It was what The movie was missing. I mean why does anyone love the movies? It was the book that made the movie. And to watch it and have half the really good parts stripped is hard.
Good second point. I felt that alot of the changes didn't have very good reasons behind them. And consequently didn't make a very good movie.
Yea I want explanations for some of the crazy stuff PJ did. And since He is clearly not listening, the next best alternative is those who liked and understood the changes and how the fit into the story. I always thought he wanted to change little things so the 'book crowd' would be in supence and not be bored with something they had, in a manner of speaking, 'already seen'.
80
posted on
12/20/2003 7:10:00 AM PST
by
Fire-Breathing_Freeper
(There can be no triumph without loss, No victory without suffering, No Freedom without sacrifice)
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