I hated Rotk (vanity ranting thread) ((spoiler alert))

ME | Today- december 18th, 2003 | Me

[Fire-Breathing_Freeper]

I was soooo dissappointed with the return of the king. It started out ok (except for the first chapter) but after Gollum knoks out Sam in the craks of doom it got really weird, corny and just plain bad.

My list of reasons; 1. Everyone knew and understood Gollum/Smeagol without having or wanting to watch him murder Deagol. It was totally sick and unnecessary.

2. Frodo was somewhat 'normal' at the end of TTT, and in the beggining of ROTK Frodo is like corrupted and half dead. The transition from good to corrupted was divided in to threes instead of being smootly worked out.

3. Theoden being relctuant about comming to Gondor's aid. Then when the beacon is lit, he is like Yea, like you even have to ask me to come.

4. Everything about Denethor. Mostly bad, a little good.

5. The way Denethor treated Faramir. While it was close to the books it didn't have the same emotional feel. Alot of Rotk didn't envok the same feelings as the book did.

6. The Gollum and the lembas scene. Sam didn't have to be sent away for the effectiveness of Frodo being corrupted.

7. The women and children in Minas Tirith. It made the city look totally unpopulated.

8. When Eowyn gave Merry his armor and then she said 'why cant he fight for those he loves' She looked like it was her underlying motive. Instead of only wanting to die because Aragorn didn't love her and she thought that Aragorn might see her worth if she died in battle.

9. Arwen dying is Sauron isn't destroyed. That was so lame and unnecessary.

10. Frodo going into Shelobs lair alone. In the book it was really sweet how Frodo and Sam went in together. All the tenderness was ripped from that scene, again not envoking the same emotions.

11. Frodo ran around way too long in Shelobs lair. Ok we all know it's really a creepy place and Frodo is scared but the scene does not need to be drawn out too long.

12. How Denethor only cared that Faramir was gravely wounded because his line would end was not as good as it could ahve been. I'm not sure what could have been done differently but something should have.

13. How the dead glowed bright florescent green. And how they looked like soldiers of rohan and gondor when they were supposed to be another race.

14. Denethor at the pyre. It was a little to dramatic again not invoking the same feelings, and drawn out too long,

15. After Frodo was stung he didn't go down soon enough and it was just nasty.

16. I also thought Sam and Shelob fought too long. I think it would have been just as affective if a third of it was cut.

17. When gandalf and Pippin were talking about dying. I loved the scene in and of itself, but just moments before Gandalf was the feerless leader and was directing the men to stand there ground. Then he like sitting in despair and saying death is not that bad. I'm not sure it needed to be there, at all or at least not in that part.

18. It slightly bugged me when the dead army went into Minas Tirith. Slightly.

19. The battle between the witchking and Eowyn. It wasn't one sided enough. and again didn't envoke the same feelings or odds of winning.

20. The orcs in the tower died too quick.

21. When Sam finds Frodo in the tower, all the tenderness and love that was shown in the book was trashed and what was left not worthy of Frodo and Sam.

22. How It was strongly suggested that if Frodo and Sam were hiding behind the rocks that they would not be scene. totally contradicting what Saruman said in fotr.

23. How Frodo was so weary he couldnt walk and then suddenyl gets up and starts running. If we just staggered that would have been fine.

24. Gollum fought with the invisible Frodo for way too long, It made me want to laugh, which again didn't envoke the same feelings as the book.

25. Gollum in the lava.

26. Sauron died too slowly.

27. The orc armies being swallowed up.

28. When the eagles were carring Frodo and they were showing him flying over the lava, That was sooo cheesy and lame! I think that was one of the things that bugged me most.

29. How Arwen showed up. It could and should have been done more ceremoniously.

30. Gandalf's wagon

31. Bilbo looked like an orc.

32. The Grey Havens looked animated and fake.

33. Frodo didn't dry when he left his friends.

[Fire-Breathing_Freeper]

Sorry, but I need to tell someone how mad and dissappointed I am. Please feel free to post your complaints here.

[RedBloodedAmerican]

Complaint? No complaints except you give away spoiler info for people who haven't seen it. Thats worse than someone taking the movie too seriously in the first place, IMO.

[HairOfTheDog]

I think we should open up a can of Metamucil on his.... eww.

Fire breather! I wouldn't have expected this out of you!

[HanneyBean]

As I have not seen it yet, I am in no position to say, but yours is the first negative post I've seen about the movie.
I'm sure it was a bummer to look forward to a movie and be disapointed.
I must say that I'm glad I'm watching the movies first - and then I'll read the books for the first time. I think those people who read and loved the books are finding it much harder to appreciate the movie. I believe I'll appreciate the book much better after having watched the movies - at least I hope I will.

On a lighter note, my only "true" hope for this movie is that Aragorn will be as sweaty, dirty, and hunk-a-licious as in the past (and I'm only saying this partly tongue-in-cheek!) Too bad Viggo is such a wimpy, liberal idiot in real life!

[HairOfTheDog]

I am not gonna read all your rants btw.... I loved the film and don't belong here. Hope you find some other nattering naybobs to commiserate with....

[RedBloodedAmerican]

Why dont they lock or delete this and redirect to the Hobbit Hole series?

[HairOfTheDog]

It's in our Hobbit Hole topic now....

Lets let FBF rant.... I am sure there is ~someone~ else who will agree. This can be their little place to do that.

I glanced down the list.... some of these complaints are so petty as to be a charicature of a rant.

My mood is unfettered.... and yard work calls me.

[Fire-Breathing_Freeper]

I'm sorry I didn't think of it.

And I didn't take it too seriously I just was really dissappointed with what I saw and what I was expecting.

[Fire-Breathing_Freeper]

Really nothing bugged you?

I'm still in shock, I hope i'll get over it. I really really wanted to like it.

I have a few fellow nattering naybobs and I am commiserating with them.

[LadyDoc]

I'm a LOTR freek, but you know, both the first and second movie left me disappointed...until I saw them a second and third time and then they grow on you.

I found myself "comparing" the movies to the books and making talking points, and trying to figure out what was being changed and why. But on rewatching, I could enjoy them as a movie period, not as the book visualized, and they became more enjoyable, and I found a lot of things I disliked weren't that bad, and I had overlooked some visual clues while trying to absorb the whole thing...

I even refused an over to see TT with a friend I disliked it so much...but after it was released and I watched it again, I found it got better and better...and the "extended versions" were the best, since they often filled out what was lacking, and of course the extended versions have the authors etc discussing why things were done a certain way, and I found I agreed.

The problem is that two medias have different artistic needs, and filmmakers have to re do stories to make them good films.

Now, go spend another 8 bucks and see ROTK again, and watch for visual clues/expressions etc. that tell the story that words tell in the book, and then let us know if you still feel that way.

[HairOfTheDog]

Of course not every moment was equally "jaw-droppingly spectacular" the moment before, or exceeded some notion of the perfect experience. But it was Damn good. Your pettiness is a bit surprising, for one who had been following the news and should have known what was reasonable to expect from a movie.

Frodo getting up and running to the entrance in a last desperate exertion was phenominally good film. Finding strength you didn't know you had. If this was the first time I had talked to you, I would think you were some troll that didn't have the faintest idea about fantasy or drama or using your imagination.

[Corin Stormhands]

[Humbug]

I haven't seen the third film yet but i can understand your disappointment as i was very disappointed with the first two films, especially the second one. Just curious, were you disappointed with those as well or just this one?

For myself, the things that didn't work for me in the first two were the way that Jackson seemed to interpret most scenes with an eye toward horror. Too much of that, in my opinion, such as the scene in Fellowship with the Elf Queen, where she seemed to become possessed, or the one where Biblo suddenly transformed into a vampire for an instant, or at the end where Sam appeared to have drowned before finally being fished out by Frodo.

The books though wasn't nearly so dark, at least that's not the way i read them. For instance, the scene with Sam in the river always struck me as much more of a lighthearted, humorous affair. So perhaps too much of Jackson's background with horror films keep finding their way into the movies for my taste.

The second film bothered me even more though, this time not only with the tendency towards the macabre but also the deviations from the book that weren't necessary (ie, not necessary in the sense they weren't done due to time contraints). The changes in the Faromir and the Ent characters, for example, making them seem less noble or even stupid. In the case of Faromir, i understand that Jackson wanted to keep emphasizing the corruptive power of the Ring but still, i think showing at least one man being able to resist it's temptations wouldn't have been a bad thing. I also believe this desire to show the corrupting influence of the Ring diminished a scene at the end of Fellowship, where Strider (deviating from the book) meets Frodo after Frodo's frightening encounter with Boromir and Strider agrees that the hobbit should go off on his own to Mordor so that he wouldn't further risk the temptation of the Ring (or something like that, i don't remember exactly how the scene went now). It made no sense though, when you think about it, for wouldn't it better to take that risk than to let a little hobbit go all alone toward Mordor and thereby almost certainly deliver up the Ring to Sauron?

Other minor things bothered me too, like throwing in the gratuitous emotional scene where everyone thinks Strider has been killed (this didn't happen in the books and plus it seemed gratuitous and somewhat cheap since it was virtually identical to the way everyone had thought Gandalf had died in the first film). Also didn't care for Gollum. Maybe because he kept reminding me of the infamous "dancing baby" you'd see on the internet a few years ago. That, plus the scene where Gollum and Smeagol "chat" was strange, and had everyone in the theatre giggling. I couldn't decide whether it was meant to be funny or not but it definitely took me 'out of the film' for a few minutes and it was a while before i could become immersed in it again.

I kept wanting to like the movies, and i was willing to overlook the minor quibbles i had, but what it really comes down to is that i'm just not a fan of Jackon's interpretation, which is a much darker take than i would prefer. Unfortunately though i think it is this interpretation that will now be ingrained on the minds of most as being the definitive take on Tolkien's work.

[rosyposy]

*Gandalf knocks Fire-Breathing-Freeper out*

[HairOfTheDog]

I am glad you are here with Our Friend Fire-breather....

[RedBloodedAmerican]

I liked the first two movies and their extended versions even more. I haven't seen this one yet. Do you know if they are going to release an extended of RTOK? Maybe that will add more to it.
I think it would be very difficult to put to screen that Tolkien put to pen. Maybe they did the best they could. It seems to follow the book line as much as possible, given the time allotted for a movie.

Thanks for the post, tho.

[discostu]

I'm really confused about your Faromir comment. He did resist the temptation of the ring. That was part of the point. He was tempted but when push came to shove he understood that the ring needed to be destroyed and that Frodo was the only one that could do it. It's even clearer in the extended version but it was still quite clear in the theatrical, he started off seeing the ring as a way to save Gondor and his relationship with his father but saw that in truth the ring would destroy him and then he SENT Frodo and Sam away even after his father threatens to hang him as a traitor.

I don't see Strider accepting Frodo's decision as agreeing that it's a good idea so much as aknolwedging that it's Frodo's burden and he must complete it as he thinks is best. He realizes that with the fellowship or without it this is an individual journey for Frodo. Then the Urukai show up and any possibility of discussion ends, Frodo must leave on his own and Aragorn must protect his escape.

I don't think Jackson interpretted scenes with an eye toward horror so much as an eye toward suspense. Dramatic movies need a flow, you need to build tension and release it, remind people of the threat then allow them to relax. The Elf Queen showed the temptation of the ring, Bilbo showed the long term personal destruction of the ring (and gave us our first glimpse of Golum as well as planting the sympathetic seeds to show that it wasn't all Golum's fault), Sam almost drowning was to heighten the tension and strengthen his bond with Frodo.

I always saw the books as incredibly dark, one of the themes running through LOTR is that the abyss looks into you also. Nobody gets out of a toe to toe confrontation with evil without being effected, things can't go back to the way they were, some wounds never heal. As the journey porgresses things get uglier and uglier, each step forward becomes more or a test of courage and determination than the last, the temptation to declare the situation too big for a group consisting primarily of half-sized individuals (Hobbits and a dwarf) becomes greater and greater. There are light moments along the way because the light is what they carry as their strength but as the story progresses the light moments become shorter and further apart as they proceed closer to the darkness they must confront.

That's my take anyway.

[discostu]

Last I heard there will be an extended version (also supposed to be a three in one release which better not have stuff not in the three together or I'll be miffed) because PJ promised Lee that he'd appear in that. Although given that the theatrical of ROTK was as long as the extended of TT the prospect of an extended ROTK kind of frightens me.

[RedBloodedAmerican]

At the local theater they're playing all 3, one after another. Starts at 4pm goes past midnight. I imagine they give restroom intermissions or hand out empty bottles beforehand. The first two are the extended. The last (ROTK), I expect is not, since its not out yet. Nice advantage to that is the cool sound system they have and the large screen. Drawback is the number of people, and I am a homebody.

[StrictTime]

" It made no sense though, when you think about it, for wouldn't it better to take that risk than to let a little hobbit go all alone toward Mordor and thereby almost certainly deliver up the Ring to Sauron?"

I think an explanation is hinted at in TTT Extended Edition. Gandalf tells Aragorn that Sauron is aware of him (Aragorn) now and is threatened by him. Maybe Aragorn had a sense of this when he let Frodo go--after all, who would notice two little hobbits? JMHO :)