Posted on 09/07/2020 12:09:29 PM PDT by CondoleezzaProtege
We Protestants certainly have a problem when it comes to Mary–so allergic are we to any sign of Marian devotion that we flip out and run the other way at any sign of it, including thoroughly orthodox phrases like “Mother of God” and “Hail Mary, full of grace.”
The first phrase is of course part of the touchstone of orthodoxy the Definition of Chalcedon, and is the proper translation of Theotokos–the preferred Protestant version (for those who even bother to recite it) is “God-bearer,” ... To call Mary the “Mother of God” was a truth that many Christians actually gave their blood and their lives to defend, and yet we Protestants have casually tossed it aside because it sounds icky and Catholic.
Likewise, the first part of the Ave Maria is of course straight from the Gospel of Luke: “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you…. Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.”
For almost as long as the Church has existed, it has held Mary in a place of special honour, and seen fit to show that honour liturgically. No doubt Marian devotion has taken many harmful forms, but should we not defer to the consensus of many centuries of Christians that some kind of Marian devotion is appropriate and desirable? Therefore we should seek to engage, together with Catholics, Orthodox, Anglo-Catholics, and long centuries of Christian practice, in whatever forms of Marian devotion that are not necessarily heretical, idolatrous, or what have you, and try to assume the best of forms that seem dubious or ambiguous.
(Excerpt) Read more at bradlittlejohn.com ...
Catholics view Mary as the first Christian I think no?
Given her conversation with Gabriel..... , “Here am I, the servant of the Lord; let it be with me according to your word.”
We conflicting gospels here......doesn’t Luke claim she had no more children whereas we believe she did .....
Why do Catholics need to place such emphasis on Mary?
How did that serve church interests?
Luke records that she gave birth to her FIRSTborn son.
I’m pretty sure a doctor, and the Holy Spirit, knows the difference between firstborn and only.
I don’t know.
I’ve asked many Catholics over the years, what the big deal is that Mary be sinless, perpetually virgin, and that Jesus did not have any half-brothers and sisters by Mary, and have yet to get an answer.
All I know is that when challenged to focus only on Jesus for a month and not pay any attention to Mary, you’d think you were asking them to cut off their right arm. If Mary were removed from Catholicism, the whole religious house of cards would collapse.
Is not Jesus’ temporal “mother/brethren, etc...” the ones who do the will of God? This came directly from the Word Himself.
Mary was a surrogate and had to be reminded to shun earthly worries by the Incarnate, confined under time at the age 12, not 13 mind you.
No. Please don’t believe this.
There is Jesus agreeing that his mother and brothers sought to speak with Him, so He turned the incident to refer to all who do the will of the Father, which is to believe on the One Whom God has sent.
I’d wager I’m the only non catholic on this forum who actually listens to catholic radio one because I agree politically and two to learn something I don’t know
“It doesn’t work.”
Isaiah 55:11
So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.
While I agree with you on most of those who post, but for the lurkers I can promise you that the above posted Scripture is as accurate as God is truthful.
Do with this as you may, but I will submit to you that by your comment you were attempting to alter the beliefs of others by saying not to enter into debate, just my observation.
“I have yet to meet a Catholic who would claim Mary is above Jesus in any way.”
Mary mother of God... the parent always has superiority over the child, so your point isn’t entirely accurate now is it? To even prove that point even more look at so much of the roman church’s art it is almost always portraying Jesus as the baby and Mary as the adult.
“have Jesus hanging on the wall, not her.”
Yes I have noticed that Jesus is still dead and hanging on the wall and your goddess that while in statue form is still alive and well. Says a lot without even saying a word now doesn’t it, but this quote explains it better than me.
“A dead Christ I must do everything for; a living Christ does everything for me.”
— Andrew Murray
“I have never seen any official or not part of Catholicism that makes Mary into God or above Him.”
rcc’s pray to Mary and their god
rcc’s bow to Mary and their god
rcc’s kneel to Mary and their god
rcc’s offer sacrifice to Mary and their god
rcc’s serve Mary and their god
rcc’s get grace from Mary and from their god
So tell me the difference.
“Mary. She is simply an intercessor when desired.”
1 Tim 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
“Why would Jesus pray to Mary? Jesus was talking directly to God”
Just as we are to only pray to, worship, and serve our God through Jesus Christ and not any created being.
Luke 4:8
Jesus answered him, “It is written, ‘YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD AND SERVE HIM ONLY.’”
“People have been praying through their dead relatives and others back through Jewish times, and this continued through the early Christians.”
And people have been murdering their babies from before there was a Jewish people it was called service to molech and now it called abortion, but it’s still the same end result, so by your reasoning I guess it must be right since it is one of the oldest forms of worship.
“Or do you consider Jews to be pagans?”
If they are not worshiping God through Jesus Christ then yes they are pagans just every other non believer in Jesus Christ. Being Jewish by DNA doesn’t give them a special pass on condemnation.
Matt 3:9
and do not suppose that you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham for our father’; for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham.
John 8:44
“You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
This is also based off Bible verse:
Hail Mary full of Grace, the Lord is with thee.
Blessed are thou amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus.
Holy Mary Mother of God,
pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death
Amen.
daniel1212Because Catholics have effectively put Mary above what God says of her, and many have effectively put her ahead of Christ.
And what makes you say that?
What? Just read what follows that statement, of Marian attributions that are ascribed to no created being in Scripture including Mary but instead parallel those uniquely written of Christ! How then can you ask "what makes you say that" when i showed you why? Did you refuse to read those substantiated statements or do you think you can think of mortals far far far "above that which is written?"
I have yet to meet a Catholic who would claim Mary is above Jesus in any way.
What kind of argument is that? Your own limited experience can hardly be the basis for what popes and Catholic saints and esteemed writers have said, to which I had linked. Here is on list which includes,
According to Eadmer (A.D. 1060–1124), an English monk and student of Anselm, “sometimes salvation is quicker if we remember Mary's name then if we invoked the name of the Lord Jesus...[who] does not at once, answer anyone who invokes him, but only does so after just judgment. But if the name of his mother Mary is invoked, her merits intercede so that he is answered even if the merits of him who invoked her do not deserve it.” Through her “the elements are renewed, the netherworld is healed, the demons are trodden underfoot, men are saved and angels are restored.” — Andrew Taylor, “Three medieval manuscripts and their readers,” University of Pennsylvania press; page 173
"In "Glories of Mary" by Liguori, whose writings were declared free from anything meriting censure by Pope Gregory XVI (1839) in the bull of his canonization, he teaches,
Beware, chosen soul, of thinking that it is more perfect to direct your work and intention straight to Jesus or straight to God. Without Mary, your work and your intention will be of little value. But if you go to God through Mary, your work will become Mary's work, and consequently will be most noble and most worthy of God. - THE SECRET OF MARY, St. Louis de Montfort; http://www.ewtn.com/library/Montfort/SECRET.HTM
O immaculate Virgin, we are under thy protection, and therefore we have recourse, to thee alone, and we beseech thee to prevent thy beloved Son, who is irritated by our sins, from abandoning us to the power of the devil... Thou (Mary) art my only hope. . . . Lady in heaven, we have but one advocate, and that is thyself, and thou alone art truly loving and solicitous for our salvation ... My Queen and my Advocate with thy Son, whom I dare not approach. Alphonsus de Liguori, The Glories of Mary, Burns and Oates, Ld., 1868, pp. 115, 249
And where can we find an advocate who is more earnest in the affair of our salvation, or who loves us more than Mary? "We acknowledge," says Saint Augustine of her, "that one alone is solicitous for us in Heaven. "...in order that our Lord may pardon us our sins, help us with His grace, free us from dangers, and relieve us in our wants, says, addressing in the words of an ancient writer: 'We know that we have as it were but one solicitous in Heaven for us, and thou art this one, so greatly does thy solicitude for us exceed that of all the Saints.'" - Liguori, Saint Alfonso Maria De'. (2013). pp. 181-2. The Glories of Mary. London: Forgotten Books. http://www.forgottenbooks.com/readbook_text/The_Glories_of_Mary_1000665057/181"
Such adulation is part of what I meant by "above what God says of her, and many have effectively put her ahead of Christ." However, nowhere in the only wholly God-inspired and faithful substantive record of what that NT believed, which is Scriptuire, esp. Acts thru Revelation, which best show us how they believed the prior revelation, is it even inferred that anyone prayed to created beings in Heaven - despite over 200 prayers being recorded by the Holy Spirit, and plenty of created beings to pray to and occasions to do so. And rather than Mary being the one advocate who is solicitous for us in Heaven, or salvation being quicker in their then if we invoked the name of the Lord Jesus, instead Scripture states that Jesus is the only heavenly intercessor btwn man and God, (1 Tim. 2:5) who ever lives to make intercession for believers, (Hebrews 7:25) and is uniquely qualified to do so, and to whom Scripture directs believers to. (Hebrews 4:14-16)
I have never seen any official or not part of Catholicism that makes Mary into God or above Him.
Just what is "official" teaching is a contested can of worms among Catholics (all bulls, all encyclicals, all of V2, all that is in catechisms, all that what popes publicly teach...?) but making Mary into a goddess is indeed part of part of Catholicism, as seen by what pope, prelates and "saints" etc. have ascribed to the Mary of Catholicisms, uncensored.
And even asserting that Mary did not sin, and never consummated her marriage, and was bodily resurrected and hears multitudinous mental prayers in Heaven as its queen is both exalting her above what is written of any created being and setting up a Heavenly object of devotion besides God.
As making that distinction itself is presumptuous, the Scriptures do not sanction religiously bowing down to any statue in supplication, nor supplies even one single prayer to anyone in Heaven but the Lord (crying "Abba, Father," Gal. 4:6; not "Mama, Mother"), nor in instructions on who to pray to ("our Father who art in Heaven," not "our Mother").
Why would Jesus pray to Mary? She wasn't even dead yet! And even if she was, Jesus was talking directly to God.
The problem here is that of your misunderstanding. Galatians 4:6 is after the gospels, and refers to the Holy Spirit in believers crying out, "Abba, Father" (not "Mama, Mother") thus praying to the Lord, no one else.
The only prayers or offerings in Scripture to anyone else in Heaven (http://peacebyjesus.net/ptds.html) is by pagans, including to the only Queen of Heaven see therein, by souls who were as adamant as many Catholics in defending their blasphemous practice:
People have been praying through their dead relatives and others back through Jewish times, and this continued through the early Christians. Or do you consider Jews to be pagans? https://silouanthompson.net/2019/08/jewish-prayers-to-saints/
Actually praying to their dead relatives did flow from pagans:
These practices developed around the beginning of the Christian era. They were a phenomenon of the times, particularly noticeable in Egypt, the great meeting ground for peoples and religions. Traveling in Egypt around 50 s.c., Diodorus of Sicily was struck by the funerary customs: "As soon as the casket containing the corpse is placed on the bark, the survivors call upon the infernal gods and beseech them to admit the soul to the place received for pious men. The crowd adds its own cheers, together with pleas that the deceased be allowed to enjoy eternal life in Hades, in the society of the good.
The passage cited earlier from the Second Book of Maccabees, which was composed by an Alexandrian Jew during the half-century preceding Diodorus's journey, should no doubt be seen against this background... It then becomes clear that at the time of Judas Maccabeus--around 170 s.c., a surprisingly innovative period—prayer for the dead was not practiced, but that a century later it was practiced by certain Jews. (The Birth of Purgatory By Jacques Le Goff. pp. 45,46 , transcribed using Free Online OCR - convert scanned PDF and images to Word, JPEG to Word, emp. mine)
Thus those who vainly attempt to actually support the vain tradition of Prayer to created beings in Heaven from Scripture cannot show:
1. Even one example where anyone prayed to anyone in Heaven but the Lord, amid the approx. 200 prayers the Holy Spirit recorded for us in Scripture.
2. Any instruction on prayer to Heaven in which the addressee is anyone God, versus a created being in Heaven.
3. Even one example in which anyone in Heaven but God regularly hear and respond to prayers addressed to them, (elders and angels offering prayers in memorial as a preclude to judgment will not do), versus the Lord Jesus being the only unceasing Heavenly intercessor. (1 Tim. 2:5)
4. One example in which anyone from Heaven but God communicated with those on earth without both being personally present in the same realm.
5. One example in which earthly relations on earth have complete correspondence to those btwn created beings, in contrast to that not being the case.
6. Even one example of a common, necessary, fundamental doctrinal Christian practice for which the Holy Spirit does not provide even one single example, except by pagans in which it is condemned.
7. Even one example in which believers even sought the intercession of Mary on earth.
8. Even one example in which faithful believers kneel before other believers on earth in obeisance in sanctioned.
9. Why Catholics are exempt from the admonition not to think of mortals "above that which is written." (1Co. 4:6)
10. Even one example in which believers kneel before a statue and praise the entity it represented in the unseen world, beseeching such for Heavenly help, and making offerings to them, and giving glory and titles and ascribing attributes to such which are never given in Scripture to created beings (except to false gods), including having the uniquely Divine power and glory to hear and respond to virtually infinite numbers of prayers individually addressed to them
Which manner of adulation,as said, would constitute worship in Scripture , yet Catholics imagine that by playing word games then they can avoid crossing the invisible line between mere "veneration" and worship.
Correction: while "Protestant" is too broad a term and includes many who pray to Mary, what matters is that Catholics ascribe qualities to Mary that the Spirit of Christ nowhere in Scripture does.
It is a common misconception that Catholics worship Mary. ... A listener named Frank recently called in to The Patrick Madrid Show with just such a concern. He explained that his parish was going through the book 33 Days to Morning Glory in preparation for consecrating themselves to Jesus through Mary. He told host Patrick Madrid, “I know this isn’t true or Catholic teaching, but it seems to put Mary on a God-like level, and how we’re being souls for Mary. My wife is a convert and asked me and I kind of got stumped a little bit.” Patrick responded, “I guess my reaction is that I’ve never detected anything like putting Mary on the same level as God. I mean, that would be blasphemy. That would be completely contrary to everything that the Church teaches.”
This is typical Catholic denial, in which Patrick simply denies seeing the sense in which the elevation of Mary is making her God-like. Here what is being described is that of placing Mary on a God-like level in the sense that as one comes to the Father thru His Son, so one comes to the Divine Son thru His mother. That Patrick cannot see anything like putting Mary on the same level as God in any sense is not a refutation of the fact that attributions that are ascribed to Mary are not ascribed to created being in Scripture but instead parallel those uniquely written of Christ by popes and Catholic saints and esteemed devotees.
For in Catholic devotion that almost almost deifies Mary, it is taught by Catholics ,
As the the Son of God has a unique unique relationship with the Persons of the Trinity, so also Mary is said to have a unique relationship with all three Persons of the Trinity;
As Christ is the express image of God, and highly exalted above all under the Father, having the primary position among all creation, so Mary is declared to be the greatest saint of all, and the first of all creatures, and as having a certain affinity with the Father, with a pre-eminent resemblance which she bears to the Father;
As Christ was called the Son of God, indicating ontological oneness, so Mary is called the Mother of God (which naturally infers the same, and is not the language of Scripture, which even clarifies Israel birthed Christ "according to the flesh, God blessed for ever": Rm. 9:4,5);
As the the Son of God supernaturally, spiritually makes believing souls into children of God, Mary is said to be the mother of Christians in "supernatural and spiritual generation."
As Christ was sinless, so Mary was;
As the Lord remained a virgin, so also Mary;
As the Lord was bodily ascended into Heaven, so Mary also was;
As the Holy Spirit directs believers to be "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith," (Hebrews 12:2) in whom believes are accounted a holy nation, (1 Pt. 2:9) so Catholicism teaches that believers are to "turn their eyes to Mary" in whom "the Church is already the 'all-holy." (CCC 829)
As the Father made Christ Lord over all things, so Mary is said to be enthroned above all creation (all other believers have to wait for their crowns) and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things;
As Christ is given all power in heaven and in earth, so Mary is “surpassing in power all the angels and saints in Heaven.”
As Christ is given all power on Heaven and on earth, so Mary is said to have (showing some restraint) “almost unlimited power;” and showing less restraint, to be "omnipotent" (by grace);
As God the Father made His Divine Son functionally the Lord over the universe, so Mary states, "I command what I will, and introduce whom I will."
As no man comes to the Father but through the Son, so it is taught that no one can come to the Son except through Mary in Heaven;
As no one can obtain mercy, be saved/redeemed or be delivered and know the Father but through the Son, so the same is said of Mary;
As those whom God has chosen will come to Him, so it is said that if Mary wills our salvation, and then we are sure to obtain it.
As the emphasis is upon Christ as the Creator through whom God (the Father) made all things, including Mary, so it is emphasized that uniquely “to her, Jesus owes His Precious Blood,” shed for the salvation of mankind, (the logic behind which can lead back to Eve);
As Scripture declares that Christ suffered for our sins, so Mary is said to have done so also, even all the consequences of sin;
As Christ redeemed mankind (as many as truly believe) with the Father and the Spirit, so it is said of Mary that "we might rightly say she redeemed the human race together with Christ."
As Christ saves us from the condemnation and death resulting from the fault of Adam, so it is taught that man was condemned through the fault of Eve, the root of death, but that we are saved through the merits of Mary; who was the source of life for everyone.
As all things come from the Father through the Son, so Mary is made to be the dispenser of all grace; that "through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation."
As believers have confidence through Christ, so Mary is extolled as being the foundation of all the believer's confidence.
As the Lord wills all souls to be saved through Christ, so it is said that it is God's will that we obtain everything through Mary.
And as the Lord called souls to come to Him to be given life and salvation, so (in misappropriation of the words of Scripture) it is said of Mary, “He that shall find me shall find life, and shall have salvation from the Lord;” “that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation. For this is His will, that we obtain everything through Mary.”
As Christ is the King of the saints and over all kings, (Rv. 15:3; 17:14; 19:16) so Mary is made Queen of Heaven and the greatest saint, and that “Next to God, she deserves the highest praise;”
As Christ ever liveth to make intercession for the saints, so is Mary said to be in constant intercession;
as only to God is ascribed the power and privilege of hearing prayer from all flesh, so also is Mary extolled as doing so;
as believers only address God/Christ in prayer to Heaven, including in prostration before Him, so also do Catholics pray to Mary;
as believers only pray to God to have mercy on sinners, so Catholics beseech Mary to do so.
As Catholics (adding error to error) believe Christ gave His "real" flesh and blood to be eaten, so it is emphasized that Mary gave Him this, being fashioned out of Mary's pure blood and even being “kneaded with the admixture of her virginal milk,” so that she can say, "Come and eat my bread, drink the wine I have prepared" (Prov. 9:5);
And as Christ is given many titles of honor, so Mary also is, except that she is honored by Catholics with more titles than they give to the Lord Himself!
Mary was a holy, virtuous instrument of God, but of whom Scripture says relatively little, while holy fear ought to restrain ascribing positions, honor, glory and powers to a mortal that God has not revealed as given to them, and or are only revealed as being possessed by God Himself. But like as the Israelites made an instrument of God an object of worship, (Num. 21:8,9; 2Kg. 18:4) Catholics have magnified Mary far beyond what is written and warranted and even allowed, based on what is in Scripture. And by playing word games Catholic think they deny that veneration can be worship based upon how it is described in Scripture.
He asked Frank to remember, “Jesus said in John chapter 17, in His high priestly prayer to the Father, ‘I have given them the glory You have given Me.’ So Jesus Himself glorifies His own mother. Not just her, but all the friends and followers of Jesus. He glorifies His own mother.”
Typical Catholic apologetical sophistry. The glory that is given to Mary is way beyond that which is given to believers as adopted sons.
no honor that we could bestow on Mary that could even approach the honors that God has already given to Mary, by choosing her to be the mother of Jesus; by selecting her from all other women.” God has already crowned Mary as the Queen of Heaven and Earth, so any honors that we give her are simply acknowledgements of what God has already done in her
More sophistry. Being this chosen vessel of God is indeed the highest honorable, but that simply cannot justify ascribing to her multitudinous tributes, titles and a glory that are nowhere given to created beings,far far far above that which is written, but to God only. Such as,
...in the supernatural and spiritual generation there is a father who is God and a mother who is Mary; she is Mother of her Creator...through Whom the Holy Trinity is sanctified; The power thus put into her (Mary’s) hands is all but unlimited; surpassing in power all the angels and saints in Heaven; At the command of Mary all obey, even God. She is omnipotent; Virgin most powerful; the greatness of the power which she wields over one who is God cannot be conceived; all in heaven and on earth, even God himself, is subject to the Blessed Virgin...she seems to have the same power as God. Her prayers and requests are so powerful with him that he accepts them as commands in the sense that he never resists his dear mother’s prayer because it is always humble and conformed to his will; when she acts, it is also He who acts; and that if her intervention be not accepted, neither is His.... Her position as "the first of all creatures, the most acceptable child of God, the nearest and dearest to him".. through her alone does He dispense His favours and His gifts; there is no grace which Mary cannot dispose of as her own, which is not given to her for this purpose;" above the Cherubim and higher than the Seraphim, right near God Himself!; Mary has authority over the angels and the blessed in heaven...God gave her the power and the mission of assigning to saints the thrones made vacant by the apostate angels who fell away through pride....all the angels in heaven unceasingly call out to her...They greet her countless times each day with the angelic greeting, "Hail, Mary", while prostrating themselves before her, begging her as a favour to honour them with one of her requests...The whole world is filled with her glory...Whatever desires the patriarchs may have cherished, whatever entreaties the prophets and saints of the Old Law may have had for 4,000 years to obtain that treasure, it was Mary alone who merited it; sometimes salvation is quicker if we remember Mary's name then if we invoked the name of the Lord Jesus; No one achieves salvation except through you...No one receives grace except through you; Thou are all-powerful in saving sinners; Beware, chosen soul, of thinking that it is more perfect to direct your work and intention straight to Jesus or straight to God; Lady in heaven, we have but one advocate, and that is thyself, and thou alone art truly loving and solicitous for our salvation; through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation. For this is his will, that we obtain everything through Mary; in Heaven we have but one advocate, and that is Thyself; and that Thou alone art truly loving and solicitous for our welfare; .you love us with a love that no other love can surpass. How often you appease the wrath of our Divine Judge, when He is on the point of punishing us! All the treasures of the mercy of God are in your hands; she had to suffer, as He did, all the consequences of sin. It was not only during the Passion that Jesus and Mary suffered for our sins; We were condemned through the fault of one woman; we are saved through the merits of another woman; to her, Jesus owes His Precious Blood...
Sources and more. And nowhere in Scripture is Mary crowned Mary as the Queen of Heaven and Earth, despite what Caths attempt to read into Rv. 12.
“Mary I trust myself to you. Pray for me that I can be like you
Which is simply another demonic perversion of what God has ordained, in which believers are called to directly be
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. (Hebrews 12:2)
In fact, if any book were to teach of another heavenly intercessor or allow for one other than the risen Lord Jesus then it would be Hebrews, but instead its teachings on Christ as the immediate recourse for help and by whose sinless shed blood believers have direct entrance into the holy of holies in Heaven to meet with God makes any later direction for believers to another heavenly to be heretical.
However,the reality is that the hyper-veneration of Mary, and her sinless and resustrected state, are just part of the many distinctive Catholic teachings are not manifest in the only wholly inspired substantive authoritative record of what the NT church believed (which is Scripture, in particular Acts through Revelation, which best shows how the NT church understood the gospels).
Um, no, that is you Catholic imagination. The apparitions like Fatima are demonic appearances. The truth about Fatima is too stark for you Catholics to look at it ... there was even a UFO photographed in the sky at the scene in 1917. A four child witnessed the apparition events but her testimony did not fit the fraud narrative the Catholic Org wanted, so she was shunted into oblivion. Sh was interview a few years ago before her death. She did not see a Mary. The history of that region is full of goddess worship and the apparition forst seen and described was wearing a tunic garment that was above the knees short. Do a little research outside of the ORG propaganda and you might wake up before its too late.
Just like...
… referring to tradition, and those who came up with it, doesn't answer ours.
I'll bet the Creator of the Universe called her "Mom" at times; although all we READ is WOMAN.
Seems pre to me; for how else can TWO be ‘working’ in a field or TWO be sleeping in a bed?
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.