Honoring Mary as Protestants

Brad Littlejohn ^

[CondoleezzaProtege]

We Protestants certainly have a problem when it comes to Mary–so allergic are we to any sign of Marian devotion that we flip out and run the other way at any sign of it, including thoroughly orthodox phrases like “Mother of God” and “Hail Mary, full of grace.”

The first phrase is of course part of the touchstone of orthodoxy the Definition of Chalcedon, and is the proper translation of Theotokos–the preferred Protestant version (for those who even bother to recite it) is “God-bearer,” ... To call Mary the “Mother of God” was a truth that many Christians actually gave their blood and their lives to defend, and yet we Protestants have casually tossed it aside because it sounds icky and Catholic.

Likewise, the first part of the Ave Maria is of course straight from the Gospel of Luke: “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you…. Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.”

For almost as long as the Church has existed, it has held Mary in a place of special honour, and seen fit to show that honour liturgically. No doubt Marian devotion has taken many harmful forms, but should we not defer to the consensus of many centuries of Christians that some kind of Marian devotion is appropriate and desirable? Therefore we should seek to engage, together with Catholics, Orthodox, Anglo-Catholics, and long centuries of Christian practice, in whatever forms of Marian devotion that are not necessarily heretical, idolatrous, or what have you, and try to assume the best of forms that seem dubious or ambiguous.

[Dead Corpse]

Meh... Jehovah's rules... He can change 'em when it suits him. It's not for me to question why he'd want to have "intimate relations" with a married Jewish girl...

I trust He's got his reasons.

[Mom MD]

You see with very one sided glasses. Protestants are treated wit anger and venom or condescension. Any attempt at dialogue leads to ad hominem attacks. There is one side of this conversation that continually runs to the moderators trying to get people banned and it’s not us. The. there are the catholics that post thread aster thread criticizing the catholic church but as soon as a protestant says the same thing the vitriol comes out. Take another look around

[Romulus]

Then why did he plead with his Father to take that cup away?

[Romulus]

Romans 7:23.

[MHGinTN]

That is one of the longest sentences I’ve read at FR>

[the OlLine Rebel]

Nope, that’s not my experience here.

It happens, but not overwhelming. And what you see may mostly be reaction, not initial ambush.

[the OlLine Rebel]

Well, she wasn’t married.

[infool7]

I’d agree both ways. But you don’t seem to understand. My point is partly, overwhelmingly I see hatred and vile coming from Protestants to Catholics on FR.

It's really not ALL Protestants but

mostly from just six five pals here on FR

that give the sane, literate Protestants a bad name.

        * Watch for who responds with vile ad Hominem attacks to see who resembles that remark

7

[the OlLine Rebel]

Oh you’re right about that. Have to admit I haven’t paid to much attention to recall any names off hand.

[Dead Corpse]

“Joseph, I really want to marry you... But an Angel came to me last night and told me I’m pregnant...”

“Um.... How much wine DID you drink last night? Because we’re half-way to Bethlehem already...”

I don’t know. I don’t care. I wasn’t there. People will argue the minutia and miss the message.

The minutia are not required for belief. Well, not mine at least.

[fortes fortuna juvat]

which best shows how the NT church understood the gospels).
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Interesting! So where exactly was this NT church located? And who exactly were its leaders? And which are the documents wherein these leaders set forth their teachings about the gospels? And, since generalized statements are usually mere conjecture, if you can, please provide specific and verifiable answers, i.e., names, locations, documents, dates, etc.

[fortes fortuna juvat]

Yes, I have no reason to disagree with that.

[infool7]

I don’t keep track for several reasons but mostly because

our Lord has a different plan for each of us and

we all proceed towards salvation at our own pace oh and

I have a big enough beam in my own eye to take care of first.

Praying that all hardened hearts melt before it’s too late.

7

[daniel1212]

Interesting! So where exactly was this NT church located? And who exactly were its leaders? And which are the documents wherein these leaders set forth their teachings about the gospels? And, since generalized statements are usually mere conjecture, if you can, please provide specific and verifiable answers, i.e., names, locations, documents, dates, etc.

I am happy to provide answers to your questions, though it is sad that your church has left you ignorant of them.

Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, (Hebrews 10:19)

The NT church was spiritually located in Heaven, where those who are adopted by God being made accepted in the Beloved (on His account) have their citizenship and are made to sit together with Christ, by whose sinless shed blood they have immediate access into the holy of holies in Heaven, and will go to be with Christ at death or His return, which ever comes first.

Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. (Ephesians 1:5-6)

And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: (Ephesians 2:6)

For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. (Philippians 3:20-21)

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (2 Corinthians 5:8)

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1 Thessalonians 4:17)

This the body of Christ, (Colossians 1:18) is the one true church to which He is married, (Ephesians 5:25) the "household of faith," (Galatians 6:10) for it uniquely only and always consists 100% of true believers, and which spiritual body of Christ is what the Spirit baptizes ever believer into, (1Co. 12:13) while organic fellowships in which they express their faith inevitably become admixtures of wheat and tares, with Catholicism and liberal Protestantism being mostly the latter.

However, as for the organic visible fellowships in which the NT believers met, usually along with some tares, these were located in various cities mentioned in the only wholly God-inspired and faithful substantive record of what that NT believed (see further below).

And who exactly were its leaders?

The apostles, as well as pastors and "certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul" (Acts 13:1) who obeyed God in sending Paul on mission. And who in turn was the primary active leader of the NT church, laboring more than all, (1 Corinthians 15:10) while before him (married) Peter was the main active pastor and missionary and who first preached the evangelical gospel of salvation by effectual faith to Jews and Gentiles , (Acts 2:14-39; 10:36-47; 15:7-10) who later exercised a general pastoral role from Jerusalem, (1 Peter 1:1) who along with James (whom Paul names first) and John Paul refers to as pillars in Galatians 2:9.

And which are the documents wherein these leaders set forth their teachings about the gospels?

These are in the Scripture, which you must have heard read, if briefly, especially Acts thru Revelation, which best show us how they believed the prior revelation, and which books make up the bulk of the New Testament. But in which distinctive Catholic teachings are not manifest.

And, since generalized statements are usually mere conjecture, if you can, please provide specific and verifiable answers, i.e., names, locations, documents, dates, etc.

These are supplied by that authoritative source, consistent with the fact that God manifestly made writing being what God manifestly made His most-reliable means of authoritative preservation. (Exodus 17:14; 34:1,27; Deuteronomy 10:4; 17:18; 27:3,8; 31:24; Joshua 1:8; 2 Chronicles 34:15,18-19, 30-31; Psalm 19:7-11; 102:18; 119; Isaiah 30:8; Jeremiah 30:2; Matthew 4:5-7; 22:29; Luke 24:44,45; John 5:46,47; John 20:31; Acts 17:2,11; 18:28; Revelation 1:1; 20:12, 15;

And thus as abundantly evidenced , as written and established, Scripture became the transcendent supreme standard for obedience and testing and establishing truth claims as the wholly Divinely inspired and assured Word of God;

Thus the veracity of even apostolic oral preaching could be subject to testing by Scripture; (Acts 17:11) even though men such as the apostles could speak as wholly inspired of God and also provide new public revelation thereby (in conflation with what had been written), yet neither of popes and councils do.

As for historical dates of composition and a summary of contents, see here for one, by the grace of God..

Hope this helps. http://peacebyjesus.net

[daniel1212]

That is one of the longest sentences I’ve read at FR>

Well, I have a few, yet I have seen ones in papal encyclicals that are longer!

[Elsie]

Good proof text!

[Elsie]

...that give the sane, literate Protestants a bad name.

BOTH of us?

I'll have to check with the other fella to see if he takes it personally.

[Elsie]

And which are the documents wherein these leaders set forth their teachings about the gospels?

Well; the first 'document' that I find is a letter of some sort mentioned in Acts chapter 15.

---

Then I think that Paul fella mentioned writing to some churches:

Church at Rome 
Church at Corinth  
Church at Galatia  
Church at Ephesus  
Church at Philippi 
Church at Colossae  
Church at Thessalonica

And individuals; too.
 
Saint Timothy  
Saint Titus  
Saint Philemon 

[Elsie]

And which are the documents wherein these leaders set forth their teachings about the gospels?

Well; yer first 'pope' wrote some stuff; as did John: to people as well as churches called out in Revelation.

---

Oh yeah! James wrote something; too.

[fortes fortuna juvat]

Hope this helps.
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It doesn’t, because quoting Scripture and those who wrote it doesn’t answer my questions. And you failed to identify any writings of the other people you mentioned or where exactly this New Testament church was established, although I suppose that would be difficult since today those who claim to belong to that church commonly state that it has always been “invisible”!