Replies

“I have yet to meet a Catholic who would claim Mary is above Jesus in any way.”

Mary mother of God... the parent always has superiority over the child, so your point isn’t entirely accurate now is it? To even prove that point even more look at so much of the roman church’s art it is almost always portraying Jesus as the baby and Mary as the adult.

“have Jesus hanging on the wall, not her.”

Yes I have noticed that Jesus is still dead and hanging on the wall and your goddess that while in statue form is still alive and well. Says a lot without even saying a word now doesn’t it, but this quote explains it better than me.

“A dead Christ I must do everything for; a living Christ does everything for me.”
— Andrew Murray

“I have never seen any official or not part of Catholicism that makes Mary into God or above Him.”

rcc’s pray to Mary and their god
rcc’s bow to Mary and their god
rcc’s kneel to Mary and their god
rcc’s offer sacrifice to Mary and their god
rcc’s serve Mary and their god
rcc’s get grace from Mary and from their god

So tell me the difference.

“Mary. She is simply an intercessor when desired.”
1 Tim 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

“Why would Jesus pray to Mary? Jesus was talking directly to God”

Just as we are to only pray to, worship, and serve our God through Jesus Christ and not any created being.

Luke 4:8
Jesus answered him, “It is written, ‘YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD AND SERVE HIM ONLY.’”

“People have been praying through their dead relatives and others back through Jewish times, and this continued through the early Christians.”

And people have been murdering their babies from before there was a Jewish people it was called service to molech and now it called abortion, but it’s still the same end result, so by your reasoning I guess it must be right since it is one of the oldest forms of worship.

“Or do you consider Jews to be pagans?”

If they are not worshiping God through Jesus Christ then yes they are pagans just every other non believer in Jesus Christ. Being Jewish by DNA doesn’t give them a special pass on condemnation.

Matt 3:9
and do not suppose that you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham for our father’; for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham.

John 8:44
“You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

Mary mother of God... the parent always has superiority over the child, so your point isn’t entirely accurate now is it? To even prove that point even more look at so much of the roman church’s art it is almost always portraying Jesus as the baby and Mary as the adult.

And yet there are several Bible sections wherein young Jesus disobeys his parents or takes charge (And he said to them: How is it that you sought me? did you not know, that I must be about my father's business?). Parental charge is waaay different than divine superiority. And of course most Mary art will do that, Mary's main role is as a mother and nurturer, which is best exemplified in that role as the Mother of God.

Yes I have noticed that Jesus is still dead and hanging on the wall and your goddess that while in statue form is still alive and well. Says a lot without even saying a word now doesn’t it, but this quote explains it better than me.

And yet that "dead Christ" is the main reason for Him: that he sacrificed himself to redeem the world of its sin. Sure, He was alive before that, and qusai-alive after His resurrection, but the main point of Jesus is his sacrifice. Mary did not die for our sins, a statue of her as a dead person doesn't relate to anything major she did. And what does Andrew have to do for a "dead Christ"? Again, that death is the ultimate of what He did, for us.

rcc’s pray to Mary and their god
rcc’s bow to Mary and their god
rcc’s kneel to Mary and their god
rcc’s offer sacrifice to Mary and their god
rcc’s serve Mary and their god
rcc’s get grace from Mary and from their god

None of which is done as worship of diety. I could say just about all of those would apply to English people (mostly Anglican Protestants, no?) and their monarchy, yet you don't accuse them of falsely worshiping the Queen, do you?

But "their" God? So you're saying that Christians don't even worship the same God? That when Protestants created their own Church in the 1500s, you started from scratch? When Luther and Calvin decided they didn't like the Church and only faith will save you, so they created their own god? And that gets into a fun tangent - so if you're saved by faith alone, then what's the point of not sinning? Why would Jesus have to sacrifice Himself if simple faith already saves everyone? And, what about Satanists? by definition, they believe in God, they just support the other side. So they're saved too, no matter how much evil they perpetuate, because works and actions mean nothing?

“Why would Jesus pray to Mary? Jesus was talking directly to God”

Just as we are to only pray to, worship, and serve our God through Jesus Christ and not any created being.
...
And people have been murdering their babies from before there was a Jewish people it was called service to molech and now it called abortion, but it’s still the same end result, so by your reasoning I guess it must be right since it is one of the oldest forms of worship.

That skips the point. Jesus had no reason to pray to Mary in heaven, she wasn't there. He of all people would be talking directly to the Father. That means nothing to the premise that we shouldn't pray to Mary.

But I'll ask you this: what's the difference between asking for the prayers of the saints, and asking for the prayers of your buddies? They're all part of the same body of Christ, some have simply died but that doesn't mean they don't care about their loved ones still on Earth, right? If Jesus/God is the only person you should talk to, then what good does asking for the prayers of others do? What good does praying for others do?

How does abortion and child sacrifice relate to this? Just because old pagan cultures did it, means we shouldn't do it? There's praying to God in the OT, so by your logic we shouldn't do that because those pagan Jews did it, and they're not the one correct Christianity. I'm plenty comfortable making absurd arguments as well.

If they are not worshiping God through Jesus Christ then yes they are pagans just every other non believer in Jesus Christ. Being Jewish by DNA doesn’t give them a special pass on condemnation.

Right, and who's to say they aren't correct? What if Jesus was just another prophet, and Christ hasn't had His first coming yet? Jews are, technically Christian, they just don't think Christ has gotten here yet.

"the parent always has superiority over the child"

really? So in your opinion Mary has superiority, in mrobisr's opinion, over Jesus?

"much of the roman church’s art it is almost always portraying Jesus as the baby and Mary as the adult."

Perhaps it is just the art you look at?

have you never seen the Pieta?

So much of Christian art where it depicts Mary is her at the foot of the cross

"I have noticed that Jesus is still dead and hanging on the wall "

really? you don't seem to have gone to many Catholic Churches at all

Definitely not ALL are like this, nor ALL are like how you portray them