Posted on 04/08/2012 1:07:37 PM PDT by jmaroneps37
Maybe somebody should call Father Jenkins at Notre Dame and ask him to teach his pal Barack a bit about the religious doctrines Obama professes to believe.
Last Wednesday at a White House Prayer Breakfast Barack Obama took his plan to redesign Christian doctrine up a notch.
To the stunned amazement of onlookers Obama the Muslim trained and educated president challenged the divinity of Jesus Christ. Of course he thought he was clever with his sop to Islam and his “finger in the eye” pronouncement, but his remarks leave no doubt about his continuing hostility toward the biggest obstacle to Islam’s world domination: Roman Catholicism.
Comparing himself to Jesus Christ, Obama told his audience, “For like us, Jesus knew doubt. Like us, Jesus knew fear. In the garden of Gethsemane, with attackers closing in around him, Jesus told His disciples, ‘my soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. We all have experiences that shake our faith. There are times where we have questions for God’s plan relative to us. But that’s precisely when we should remember Christ’s own doubts and eventually his own triumph.”
A professor of theology at a Catholic – Catholic university (as opposed to the fake “Catholic” universities) commented on Obama’s remarks saying, “My question is what would He be doubting? Would He be doubting the Father’s care and merciful love?
Is He doubting the value of his mission? I don’t think there is any real context that I could understand to say Jesus doubted.”
Keeping in mind that Muslims don’t believe Jesus was divine makes sense of these remarks. Obama was obviously projecting his own “doubts” about who Jesus was …..“….the Bible does not say Jesus who is God had any doubts. But why would Obama know that?
(Excerpt) Read more at coachisright.com ...
Read Psalm 22 and get back to me.
Cheers!
There was no no doubt of His ability to endure. There was dread of what He had to face, not doubt of His ability to endure it.
I believe your reasoning is flawed. He had the ability to sin, but He did not. He had the ability to doubt, but He did not.
“Eloi Eloi lama sabachthani”
No question Christ’s most alone time...must have been horrible....absorbing the sins of humanity was overwhelming...and he was severed for a time
It's also a reference to the 22nd psalm which presages Jesus' betrayal, crucifixion and death in great detail. Jesus was letting Us know that in His death and resurrection prophecy was being fulfilled.
CC
All Bambi “needs) to know (and does know) about the Gospels he learned from The Last Temptation of Christ and Jesus Christ Superstar! Seriously.
If you look at Psalm 16 vv. 8-11 (cited by Peter at Pentecost in Acts 2:22-28) you will read of One whose confidence was in God because he “had ever set the Lord’s face before me.” Those verses refer to the Savior’s state of mind while ever drawing nearer to the cross (”My heart did rejoice, My tongue was glad, My flesh shall rest in hope”). His confidence leads Him to trust fully and completely in His Father (”thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption”) as He draws near to his ultimate sufferings—and the grave of which Peter spoke in Acts 2:24 that “it was not possible that He should be holden of it.” Peter’s conclusion about his Savior was that it was an absolute impossibility for Christ to die and remain in the ground (for it is sin that bringeth forth death and this man did no sin, knew no sin neither was there any sin in Him!) The concluding verses of Psalm 16 speak of the risen Savior and His exaltation to that place where He dwelt before in eternities past - in the bosom of the Father (”Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.”) There ever to dwell with the Father - the Father once more united with the Son of His Love, the One in Whom He is well-pleased.
I’m not sure where to fit the idea of doubt in there. I’m sure there was something along the lines of experiencing the horrors of God’s judgment raining down on Him as he bore our sin in His own body on the tree (for it says, “it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God!”). But doubt in the character and nature of God—never. He and the Father are One.
Exactly correct. He came to FULFILL the Law and the Prophets.
.... islam is a personification of anti christ, and here we have one of their Ghazi’s in OUR White House. Creepy is a understatement when you add in the predictions of biblical writers.
Simply put, it’s evidence that we are in the end times.
Obama is more familiar with the Muslim view of Jesus.
Jesus knew that when He became sin for us,He would for the first time be totally seperated from our Father. A man without sin to become sin, even for someone like Barack Obama, if he was smart enought to accept Jesus as his savior.
But I think obama considers himself divine and without need of a savior.
..He did ask, however, that the cup be removed...he knew what suffering he'd face....God said no.
Yes, he acts like he is now nuts. Can’t guess whether it’s drug-induced or genetic, but he is definitely sounding nuttier by the day.
And he looks physically not well. Looks extremely frail and skinny - like a breeze would knock him over.
Quotation from Elijah? That wasn't a quote from Elijah. It's a quote from Psalm 22--King David. It's a Messianic Psalm.
1My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring...
13They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
14I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
15My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
16For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
17I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
18They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture. (KJV)
Obvious it works for him...his followers still follow.
Obama is more familiar with the Muslim view of Jesus. [The Great RJ, post #50]
Uh-oh. Now you've both done it.
Doncha know there's hundreds of FREEPERS who have either mildly objected
-- or in many dozens of cases -- denigrated & castigated --
--any poster who dare discusses the religion of a POTUS candidate?
They've repeatedly entered into Romney threads...the "they" being FREEPER laissez-faire types...or scolders...or the "bigot patrol":
#1 There's the "laissez-faire" FREEPER approach to Romney's Mormonism: "I don't care about Romney's religion...It doesn't bother me what Romney's religion is...it's his [X, Y, Z] in his track record, etc."
#2 There's also the FREEPER "scolders": "Thou shalt NOT focus on religion. I'm not electing a pastor-in-chief. Stick to politics. Stick to the economy. Let's keep religion hermetically sealed!"
#3 And then there's those who up the ante and just start accusing as the self-appointed "bigot patrol" -- and they toss out the "b" labels like a good liberal tactic...[Who cares about the content discussion]
IOW...we see from the...
...laissez-faire FREEPERs mentioned above all kinds of caveats and qualifiers;
...from the scolders plenty of chastisement over our refusal to "properly" "compartmentalize" worldviews;
...and from the "bigot" accusers all kinds of zealous intensified presentations of the "thou shalt not critique religious expressions" -- all as they critique our religious expressions! [Go figure that self-refutation out!]
My Question?
Will they pop out on Easter day to scold away @ people who might dare comment on Obama's "faith?" (Now that posters on this thread have "violated" their "keep religion out" "principles"???)
My guess?
Nope...they are either too busy on Easter...or too hypocritical to apply their so-called "convictions" across the board.
It is not a Christian thing to accuse somebody of being hateful because of a disagreement. And, it is a fool who accuses another of being hateful and then attempts to engage that person in a conversation. As I do not presume you to not be a Christian or to be fool, I’ll dismiss the insult as a mere slip of the pen.
Traditionally, Christians take Jesus statement, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” to be the opening verse of Psalm 22.
The following is a rather standard commentary on this:
http://www.americancatholic.org/Messenger/Apr2004/Feature1.asp
The traditional Christian arguments are very similar concerning the three temptations, Jesus’ overturning the bankers’ tables at the Temple, his condemning the barren fig tree, and so forth. I also like the humor and sarcasm of Jesus, such as Jesus’ banter with the woman at the well, and when he told his disciples that two swords would be enough.
Your point, that Jesus was both fully human and fully divine, and so personally experienced the full range of human emotions that we experience is valid and very important. Jesus is our intermediary with God. Because of Jesus, we can be confident that God will understand us.
It seems to me that you would also say the human side of Jesus doubted even though the divine side of Jesus knew. Actually, this sounds like a reasonable position, and if it helps you to understand the mystery of Jesus’ dual nature, then it’s a good thing. But, the other position, the traditional one, is that Jesus said what he said for our sake, so that we would know that there are times when questioning God is o.k.
Having thought about this, I think the Copts may be onto something, that it’s a mistake to think of Jesus as having two natures, one human and one divine. Jesus had one nature that was both human and divine. This inclines me to think that Jesus allowed himself to be tempted and invoked the beginning of Psalm 22 for our sake, not that he ever felt tempted or actually doubted God.
As to doubt and fear, we, being human, certainly doubt and have fear. Therefore, we need to have faith and hope. Faith and hope, along with love, are therefore the Christian virtues. Paul says that in the fullness of time, we will not need faith or hope, because we will know. But, we will still have love. Jesus, being divine, was from the beginning of time, in the state we will be at the end of time. He knows, therefore, he neither doubts nor fears, and he doesn’t need faith or hope. Jesus loves.
Finally, I come to the verse invoked by the President, where Jesus said he was full of sorrow. The traditional Christian understanding of this verse is that Jesus was about to take upon himself the sins of the world, which made his full of sorrow. This verse is certainly not a proof with regard to Jesus’ doubt or fear.
Had Dubya tried this type of rhetoric, the Leftwing #ers in the Media would have eviscerated him.
This Jesus rhetoric is nothing but Commie deceit in action.
Since Obama isn’t a theologian, I’m gonna give him a pass on this one. The Garden of Gethsemene is like the thief on the cross. It spawns lots of discussion.
I don’t think Jesus had doubts, but I do think He did say, “Take this cup from me.” By that, I think He was saying He knew the ordeal would be awful. He was sane, so He didn’t want to go through that. Jesus was no masochist. He went through it because of a greater purpose.
Do I expect some politician to get that? It would be nice if they did, but I wouldn’t be surprised if they didn’t.
In closing, let me say that my opinion is that members of liberal churches — and Obama was the member of such a church under Jeremiah Wright — would tend to still be unbelievers. My other observations of Obama lead me to think his religious forays are opportunistic.
Luke 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
Luke 22:43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.
Luke 22:44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground. _______________________________________
Why did Jesus value his life so much? Because as The Son of God and as the absolutely perfect Son of Man His life had so much value and was so unspeakably precious that we cannot even begin to understand it, but as one with perfect understanding, He did. What He was giving up for us we cannot even begin to fathom. Jesus loved life perfectly. In His prayer we are shown that He did not have a martyr's complex, meaning that He wasn't in any way driven or compulsed to die. He gave His life up for us totally aware of what it would be like and what it would mean as far as buying our salvation, our way out of eternal hell and into loving eternal fellowship and life in the Kingdom of Heaven. He gave His life for us freely.
His asking The Father if He was willing to remove the cup from him shows that there was any other way, the one and only way for any of us to be saved would by His death. It shows us that there is no other conceivable way, even in the infinite mind of God for us to be saved, no other possible route for us to The Father. If we were to be saved He must suffer and die the horrible death on the cross that He did die in our place for us. By the action of His own will Jesus would stay on the cross all the way through and until He died. At any time He had the power to stop the Crucifixion. Willing Himself, He stayed there for us.
Jesus was not doubting, He was preparing Himself for what He knew that He would do. He was going to die in our place, paying the price justice demands for every horrible, demented, perverted, wicked sin humanity ever committed. He would do this by sacrificing His own precious and perfect life. He would shed His atoning blood and allow His body to broken unto death. He bought us with His blood.
Two things motivated Him, as The Son of God His obedience to His Father whom He loved, honored and was in complete subjection to and as The Son of Man His utter love and compassion for us.
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