Flash mobs in an armed populace ? (Vanity)

Self | 8/11/11 | Celerity

[Celerity]

Thank you for taking the time to read my Vanity post.

A lot of people here, and in my face-to-face world, have mentioned that the mobs, riots and looting that is occuring around the world would take a different path here in the US, in areas where people are allowed to carry firearms, and use them in accordance with both laws and sensibility.

And it's the Sensibility portion of that I would like to discuss.

Everytime I measure and imagine (Simulations!) my response to violent flash mobs or rioters, I come up snake eyes. Here are two of such scenarios that I play out in my mind:

#1 I'm in my local convenience store, buying .. i dunno.. Porn mags and stale cigarettes and gasoline. Suddenly the front door swings open and the place is rushed by 10 or more teens who are screaming, destroying the store and running out with items.

#2 I'm dropping off some things at the post office to mail out. Say, I dunno.. Porn mags and stale cigarettes. An orchestrated attacks begins throughout my downtown area. 50, 100, 200 people start throwing rocks through windows, molotov cocktails, bricks, porn mags or stale cigarettes through store windows, setting fires or what-have-you.

We have heard around these parts how the outcome would be different were an armed populace involved. Well, "Here I am" . Now what ?

At what point in these events will it be both legal, and importantly: Prudent to present a firearm ? In the convenience store example, I have seen as few as 3 people cause so much ruckus that a knife was drawn and a kid was stabbed almost instantly. The kid didn't even know he was stabbed in the chaos. In the riot situation, Hiding or just leaving is the important decision, but are there scenarios that change that play ?

I see innocent people being hurt in riots all the time. But when is it time to draw a firearm and use it? I don't see the immediate danger to myself (Unless I'm the target of the protest, such as at a Union rally).

Help me connect some dots and make a correct decision.

Thanks !

-> Steve

[absolootezer0]

i believe that if i potentially need more bullets than what are loaded in my gun, i’m in a situation that i should not draw it.

[Jonty30]

If it is a choice between following state dictates and saving somebody’s life, always take your case before a jury.

[tsowellfan]

Call the Cops/ Are you kidding me

I wish I could say yes but I never posted "call the cops". Maybe you clicked reply to the wrong person OR maybe you need to get a reading refresher class.

What say you?

[Gaffer]

#1 I'm in my local convenience store, buying .. i dunno.. Porn mags and stale cigarettes and gasoline. Suddenly the front door swings open and the place is rushed by 10 or more teens who are screaming, destroying the store and running out with items.

Two things. Do they attack you? Second, if they attack you you had better be carrying a 9mm Glock with a 33rd mag and a couple of backups. Either that, or you'd better be a damned good shot with a 15 rd mag....

[Okieshooter]

“Ask Jerome Ersland”

If you do have to use a gun do not make one of the mistakes that Jerome did, that is he talked to the police when they arrived and told some lies in an effort to try to prove his innocence. Do not say anything without a lawyer.

[Envisioning]

i believe that if i potentially need more bullets than what are loaded in my gun, i’m in a situation that i should not draw it.

I agree. Glock 23 with 2 spare magazines gives you 40 rounds......

Just saying.

Flash mob (((ping)))

[BitWielder1]

Get the hell out if you can, only shoot if your life or the life of a family member is in danger.
A home owner can defend his property, a store owner can defend his store, depending on jurisdiction, but it's a complete crap shoot if you as a customer can 'help out' and not end up in jail or lose your CCW.
It's good that you are thinking this through.
Ask yourself if it's worth the hassle and possible several years of your life just to save someones stuff.
To save the life of another, maybe it is. It's your decision to make.
Doing what's Right and doing what's Legal is not always the same, alas.
Think of your own safety first.

[Osage Orange]

A weapon is not to be brandished just to warn people. If ALL you want to do is give a warning, give a verbal warning but don’t pull a weapon.

Situations are different....and should be taken in to account. When / if I pull my weapon...I'm ready to use it. Period. And I've made that determination..before hand.

Some folks just don't take a verbal warning for an answer...and we all need to have some discernment in that regard.

[E. Pluribus Unum]

All the shopkeeper needs to do is have a sound clip of a Glock 17 in rapid-fire mode ready to play over the PA system.

The place will clear out faster than you can say "Eric Holder's people."

[wolfcreek]

Well since you're probably not going to have enough ammo on you to kill all the zombies, I'd draw my weapon, make a beeline for my vehicle.

If anyone of the zombies attempted to enter my vehicle or impede my progress, I would use my weapon to dissuade them as necessary until I got to my home.

Any NECESSARY ACTIONS AFTER THAT....Katy BAR THE DOOR.

[Osage Orange]

ROFLOL!!!

[GonzoGOP]

In both situations, just the sight of a gun would make most of the mobbers turn tail and run. You might not have to fire, and if you do have to fire, there will suddenly be fewer potential targets.

Remember the question was how would this be different in an armed society. Well one thing that is almost certainly different is that in an armed society the yobs would likely be armed too. If you draw you had better be prepared to drop them all before they can get their weapons out. Because once the shooting starts the guy doing the shooting becomes, by default, the primary target of return fire. If they catch sight of your weapon before the first one of them hits the floor you were probably too slow.

[Celerity]

So far, I can agree mostly with BwanaNDege has to say here. I do live in a good area, and am armed. I wouldn’t draw or present a weapon unless I needed to fire, and wouldn’t fire unless I needed to kill, and wouldn’t kill unless mine or another life was in clear peril. This is drilled into my head.

As a correction : The Molotov cocktail thing wouldn’t happen in my neighborhood. I live about 2 blocks from my “urban center” (think 30 or so buildings, the tallest 5 being 4 stories) but on the other end of that urban center are 4 slums of dark villany. These people are frequently crossing the train tracks and causing a ruckus - even getting people killed. The police have setup annex stations in these public housing slums. They are truly places to be avoided. Not Detroit-level, but certainly level to be watched.

Invaders on the home, is a definite defense situation. I’m talking about molotov cocktails, bricks and rocks in the urban center while I send out a package or visit a coffee shop (This urban area has several notable coffee shops)

Allow me to follow up my situations with the core observation:

We all say that riots will turn out differently in the US because of our right to firearms. But how will that right affect the riots at all ? Even if there are modern hazards (riots and violent flash mobs) how will owning a firearm affect the situation, when all of my scenarios will only be ESCALATED and HARMED by using a gun ?

If a gun owner in this country were to pull out a gun in a riot, They will be pinpointed as a villain by media and the public-at-large. It MUST be the most righteous, caught-on-film shooting in history.

We can’t just pull out guns and start shooting people (Usually, so far, kids) just because a riot has broke out, or they have decided to ransack a store.

Again, I see a lot of posts on FR that say “The riots will stop the moment some kid gets shot for raiding a dunkin donuts” but I disagree. You can’t shoot people for trashing a store and shoplifting. You can’t shoot people for being caught in mob mentality, or for vandalizing property. How will gun ownership affect the outcome of these riots in the US ?

I don’t think it will. I think we will see large-scale rioting the likes we haven’t seen in decades. I think riots will escalate to “NOLA” levels, where the entire area is decimated for weeks or months afterwards, and a lot of people die in “Escape from New York” style gang-lands. I think riots will be VERY BAD in the US, and gun ownership will have very little positive effect on it.

Of course, as a CCW holder, I know exactly what my boundaries are for my locale and what decisions I’m willing to sleep with. But I can’t see any scenario where presenting a firearm during these situations will positively affect the outcome.

I do enjoy some of the responses though ! Freep on !

[Joe Brower]

Vanity or no, a germane and worthy thread considering the situation currently at hand.

[GenXteacher]

In my state, its when I fear death or grave bodily harm, or oddly enough, if the attacker is wielding a knife within 21 feet. In NC we don’t have a legal right to employ deadly force to defend property, which I find annoying- we spend a lot of our lives accumulating property and in my opinion, a thief is actually stealing part of your life. In any case I’ll put my faith in the Almighty and the 1911- I’ll get the phone out after its over.

[Joe Brower]

[Osage Orange]

To save the life of another, maybe it is.

"Maybe it is"?

[Osage Orange]

Actually pretty damn good idea.......

[thackney]

Destruction of property does not allow for use of deadly force

That depends where you live.

Texas Penal Code.
Sec. 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:
(1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41; and
(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:
(A) to prevent the other’s imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or
(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and
(3) he reasonably believes that:
(A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or
(B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

[The Theophilus]

There would still be a very costly and lengthy court process to go through to prove that you acted legally.

Provided that you were stupid enough to hang around.

Its a flash mob, by definition the crowds are too big to be able to control or identify folks in them.

Learn to wear a baseball cap and sunglasses or a hoodie when entering places where flash mobs might gather.

When in Rome...