The 1911 Sucks (Reasoned Argument)

yankeegunnuts.com ^ | 20 December, 2010 | GunNutmegger

[marktwain]

I have said it before and I will end up saying it again: the 1911 an old design that is more trouble than it is worth. I don’t say it to be confrontational, or to draw attention to myself. I say it because I see my fellow shooters mindlessly parroting the gun equivalent of Chuck Norris Facts whenever the 1911 comes up in conversation, and I just don’t get it.

I am not surprised that the 1911 is out of place in today’s world, and you shouldn’t be surprised either. What other 100-year old design is still in daily use?

In the comment section of another blog, I summarized my skepticism of the 1911′s attributes thusly:

It’s a 100-year old design. It needs tools to disassemble. It has unreliable magazines. It is finicky about ammo. And, as a single-action pistol, it is unsafe for 95% of its users to carry.

In my original complaint, I forgot to mention the issue with slide-stop failures, and the whole internal extractor/external extractor situation. Either of which would be serious enough to kill any other design’s reputation in the shooting world.

In response to some knee-jerk defenses of the 1911 from fanboys who drank too much John M. Browning Kool-Aid, who told me how all that I needed to do was buy a bunch of aftermarket parts and send the gun to a gunsmith, I added:

Why does a reliable 1911 cost so much, and need so much gunsmithing?

To be fair, I have some of the same complaints with the Walther PPK. Which is also a very old design, one which has been eclipsed by more modern designs which can do everything it does better.

I mean, is it unreasonable to expect an affordably-priced pistol for defense to reliably feed hollowpoints out of the box? What Smith&Wesson pistol of recent manufacture won’t feed hollowpoints? What about Glock? SiG? Beretta? (I know Kahrs need to have some rounds through them before they are reliable, but it says that right in the owners manual). The shooting public would not accept an unreliable gun of a more modern design. But for some reason, the 1911 gets a pass for all of its flaws. “Just use hardball” is not a valid defense of the 1911 design, nor is it a valid strategy for selecting ammunition to defend yourself.

And God help anyone who buys a used 1911. Everyone and their brother seems to think they are qualified to take a Dremel to their 1911. Guys who can’t change their own flat tire somehow have no reservations about playing doctor on their 1911. Who knows what wacky “custom” parts have been put into the gun because someone read about it on the interweb tubes?

It was the best military sidearm of its day, and for a long time afterward. I do not dispute that. But its time has long passed. And a military sidearm is not the same thing as a handgun for personal defense.

Leave aside the lack of reliability with hollowpoints, and the other problems. The 1911 is too big to conceal. And the smaller versions are less reliable due to the shorter slide-travel and a tendency to limp-wrist the gun.

Some people protest by saying that the 1911 is the best gun for defense, because the most “realistic” shooting sports are heavily populated with 1911 users. And everyone knows that you should train like you fight, so that you will fight like you train, right? Well, that would be a more convincing argument if those “realistic” shooting sports didn’t have intricate rules that somehow disqualify most non-1911 designs. Purely by coincidence, right? Sure, they come up with semi-plausible rationales for some of those rules, but there is no way to disguise the overall bias towards the 1911.

I don’t hate 1911 fans. I merely pity them, because they are victims of marketing hype and groupthink, the lemmings of the gun world. And if someone sinks thousands of dollars into a 1911 (and isn’t using it to compete for money), well they are just gullible. Like the kind of people who pay money for tapwater in a bottle.

So what if Jeff Cooper liked the only handgun in use when he was in the military? It’s not like he had a choice of other handguns to use. And, on a related note, Jeff Cooper has a reputation that exceeds his accomplishments. The best information that I can find shows that he spent the battle of Guadalcanal as the training officer on Gen. Vandegrift’s staff. Not leading a platoon. Not on the line, pulling a trigger. And his coy evasions when asked about his real-world experience with gunfighting are revealing, if one cares to view them objectively. (If you have documentation about Cooper’s real-world experience, please drop me a line. I am happy to revise my opinion.) I have no doubt that he was qualified to teach people how to shoot on a range. Beyond that, a grain of salt is required. I prefer to get my advice on defense & gunfighting from men who have actually been there & done that; Massad Ayoob, Jim Cirillo, etc. Am I a qualifications snob? No, I am an results snob.

Ok, got it out of my system.

[flowerplough]

Screw, wedge, lever, pulley, wheel and axle. Though some say the screw is just a rotary wedge, and a pulley is a re-applied wheel.

[CodeToad]

"The biggest problem might just be that there are too damn many manufacturers and variations to choose from."

More proof that the "100 year old design" is still viable and working well.

I believe all those 1911 manufacturers make good guns, and some make great guns, but a good gun can be had for a reasonable price. Price is certainly not an indicator of quality with 1911s, although some would argue a $3,000 Wilson Combat 1911 is better than a $500 Springfield Armory 1911. That hasn't been my experience. I carry a Kimber Ultra Carry every day and love it; $800.

I also love a bunch of other guns I own and have carried, so it's not as though I am a 1911 bigot. I just love the form factor, trigger pull, and the 45 caliber round itself. I am also a huge fan of the 40S&W round, too; 155gr Speer Gold Dot at 1250fps.

[Durus]

ARs are more accurate the M1A’s. Look up the winners of camp perry and see what they were shooting. I’m not talking about quick second shots or full auto just simple accuracy. New pistons are just like old pistons, it’s not new technology.

With all piston systems you end up with accuary issues because you have a reciprocating mass attached to the barrel. It inhibits natural barrel harmonics. Let me put it another way...when shooting for accuracy with a bolt action rifle one of the most important considerations is to make sure that stock is properly bedded and glassed so that the stock does not contact the barrel. In a normal AR there are no moving parts attached to the barrel that would restrict harmonics. With a piston system, regardless of rifle type, you are attaching moving parts to the barrel. It simply cannot be as accurate.

I will take a more accurate rifle that I have to clean more carefully over less accurate rifle that I don’t have to clean as well.

[Lees Swrd]

Me Too!! To Tell the truth I have at one time owned about every handgun I have seen 500 S&W, 454 Casull, revolvers pistols owned them all guess what I carry today a 1911A manufactured in 1944 long slide made for hardball ammo but shoots anything i feed it.

[OneWingedShark]

>and I understand the M16s are more reliable than one they first came out

Well, you would expect SOME improvement after throwing hundreds or thousands of MILLIONS of Dollars at the problem.
That it STILL has so many problems after so much refinement is indicative of a poor design at the start; just because “it works” does not mean that it works well.

[OneWingedShark]

I really like my PS-90 and see why the Belgians would equip their tankers and rear-echelon people with it: the compact design and the easy field-stripping/cleaning is especially well-suited for that job.

[Stonewall Jackson]

My 90-year-old grandfather gave me a demonstration on how to field strip his 1911A1 a few years back.

Even with Parkinson's causing his hands to shake severely, he still managed it in barely 30 seconds. It took him a little longer on the re-assembly (primarily due to the fact that he dropped a part and he had to get out of the way so that I could get under the desk and find it) but it was still together in less than 2 minutes.

[Total Package]

You would want an FN Five seveN to go to war with?

This would not be the primary weapon like a .223 or .308. But a for a sidearm the FN 57 has a very good ammo capacity, it is not a heavy full size pistol. At 2500 ft/sec it can penetrate soft body armor and is accurate enough to make lone pistol shots. Your mileage my vary.

[Zeppelin]

An A5 is a very cool classic!

The best part about taking that old Winchester skeet shootin’ was all the professional skeet shooters carrying $3,000+ O/U’s intrigued with MY old beat-up pump. I had no less than 5 guys come up to me, asking “is that a Model 12??? Wow, VERY cool!” hahaha

[urtax$@work]

thanks, i will have “smitty” look into it..

[Total Package]

I like your PS-90 too. It’s Christmas time ;- . Marry Christmas.

[04-Bravo]

I carry a concealed pistol almost everywhere I go, and the only one I carry is a 5” 1911.

I’ve shot most of the popular types of handguns, and there’s nothing wrong with a Glock, HK, or SIG. And I especially like classic DA revolvers. But I can shoot a 1911 better than anything else I’ve tried. A steel 5” .45 ACP seems like an almost perfect combination of power and weight. With a short trigger and flat mainspring housing it fits my hand just right; I much prefer a single-action trigger to the DA/SA models, and I never could get used to the trigger on a Glock or HK P7.

Probably my biggest disagreement with the author of the article is his claim that a 1911 is too big to conceal. Because of its relatively flat single-stack frame, a 1911 is easier to conceal than most modern double-stack semiautos, and almost any revolver. For me at least, it’s the thickness of a handgun that determines how easy it is to conceal or how comfortable it is to carry. With a good holster, good belt, and pants with a sturdy waistband, I can comfortably carry a 5” 1911 all day.

Modern versions of the 1911 can be expensive. It was designed when labor costs were low, and steel was the primary material.

And they can be finicky about ammo and magazines. That’s probably because there are so many manufacturers now, each with potentially different tolerances, quality control, and production methods. For a long time, the only commercial manufacturer was Colt, making pistols designed to fire .45 hardball ammo, using magazines made to their specifications, all a result of years of government testing and use.

There is nothing wrong with other handgun designs and calibers. But I’ve tried a lot of them, and I still prefer a 1911.

[B4Ranch]

>>And God help anyone who buys a used 1911. Everyone and their brother seems to think they are qualified to take a Dremel to their 1911.<<

There’s not a handgun or rifle that simple polishing of the contact points does not improve. I back this up by my experience that Militec-1 has improved the action of every weapon I have ever applied it to. What is Militec-1? An oil that reduces friction much better than most oils.

I am no in favor of grinding or sanding the contact points unless you have lots of experience doing so.

[texmexis best]

“I, for one, prefer the 1911 type over double action designs I have tried.”

I can’t stand Double Actions. It seems as if I never get to the point that the trigger fires. It drives me nuts.

I’ll stick with single action.

[texmexis best]

“H&R single-shot shotguns haven’t changed much since the late 1800s either.”

My H&R .45-70 is a substantially older design than 100 years and it is truly an awesome rifle.

[TalonDJ]

Sso ba[c]k to my orig ?question, [have] you ever have[had] a 45 go off when slamming home[chambering] a bullet from the mag ??

No, never. I would check the firing pin spring. Also it is possible it is so dirty the firing pin is sticking. A good detail strip and cleaning with a check of that spring might fix your issue.

[TalonDJ]

Any time the question of “which firearm is better?” comes up, the answer lies in “what are you planning on doing with it?”

And it overlooks ergronomics issues. I warn everyone I introduce to firearms against any advice that is absolute, like 'only buy this brand' etc. I tell them if someone offers them that sort of 'wisdom' that they should ignore it.

[Squantos]

Carried a browning high power in early 70’s an was “allowed” to carry my own personal 1911A1 from 75 thru retirement then as a goobermint contractor an deputy sheriff.

1911A1 will be the last firearm I sell.

Enjoy SIG’s an Glocks as well but if I know the threat is high an I can’t have a shotgun or rifle....

The 1911A1 is the one I will be carrying...got me from there to here so far.

People should own an shoot what works for them. Reliable an comfortable carry concerns are key for me yet....KISS concept rules for self defense tools IMO.

The 1911 is as simple as it gets.....

[B4Ranch]

>>there is nothing, and I mean nothing like the trigger on a quality 1911.<<

You’re talking about a re-worked 1911, something he was complaining about too.

[dangerdoc]

I’ve heard about fighting Moros in the PI but I like your story better. Definatley more colorful.