Posted on 12/23/2010 5:29:16 AM PST by marktwain
I have said it before and I will end up saying it again: the 1911 an old design that is more trouble than it is worth. I don’t say it to be confrontational, or to draw attention to myself. I say it because I see my fellow shooters mindlessly parroting the gun equivalent of Chuck Norris Facts whenever the 1911 comes up in conversation, and I just don’t get it.
I am not surprised that the 1911 is out of place in today’s world, and you shouldn’t be surprised either. What other 100-year old design is still in daily use?
In the comment section of another blog, I summarized my skepticism of the 1911′s attributes thusly:
It’s a 100-year old design. It needs tools to disassemble. It has unreliable magazines. It is finicky about ammo. And, as a single-action pistol, it is unsafe for 95% of its users to carry.
In my original complaint, I forgot to mention the issue with slide-stop failures, and the whole internal extractor/external extractor situation. Either of which would be serious enough to kill any other design’s reputation in the shooting world.
In response to some knee-jerk defenses of the 1911 from fanboys who drank too much John M. Browning Kool-Aid, who told me how all that I needed to do was buy a bunch of aftermarket parts and send the gun to a gunsmith, I added:
Why does a reliable 1911 cost so much, and need so much gunsmithing?
To be fair, I have some of the same complaints with the Walther PPK. Which is also a very old design, one which has been eclipsed by more modern designs which can do everything it does better.
I mean, is it unreasonable to expect an affordably-priced pistol for defense to reliably feed hollowpoints out of the box? What Smith&Wesson pistol of recent manufacture won’t feed hollowpoints? What about Glock? SiG? Beretta? (I know Kahrs need to have some rounds through them before they are reliable, but it says that right in the owners manual). The shooting public would not accept an unreliable gun of a more modern design. But for some reason, the 1911 gets a pass for all of its flaws. “Just use hardball” is not a valid defense of the 1911 design, nor is it a valid strategy for selecting ammunition to defend yourself.
And God help anyone who buys a used 1911. Everyone and their brother seems to think they are qualified to take a Dremel to their 1911. Guys who can’t change their own flat tire somehow have no reservations about playing doctor on their 1911. Who knows what wacky “custom” parts have been put into the gun because someone read about it on the interweb tubes?
It was the best military sidearm of its day, and for a long time afterward. I do not dispute that. But its time has long passed. And a military sidearm is not the same thing as a handgun for personal defense.
Leave aside the lack of reliability with hollowpoints, and the other problems. The 1911 is too big to conceal. And the smaller versions are less reliable due to the shorter slide-travel and a tendency to limp-wrist the gun.
Some people protest by saying that the 1911 is the best gun for defense, because the most “realistic” shooting sports are heavily populated with 1911 users. And everyone knows that you should train like you fight, so that you will fight like you train, right? Well, that would be a more convincing argument if those “realistic” shooting sports didn’t have intricate rules that somehow disqualify most non-1911 designs. Purely by coincidence, right? Sure, they come up with semi-plausible rationales for some of those rules, but there is no way to disguise the overall bias towards the 1911.
I don’t hate 1911 fans. I merely pity them, because they are victims of marketing hype and groupthink, the lemmings of the gun world. And if someone sinks thousands of dollars into a 1911 (and isn’t using it to compete for money), well they are just gullible. Like the kind of people who pay money for tapwater in a bottle.
So what if Jeff Cooper liked the only handgun in use when he was in the military? It’s not like he had a choice of other handguns to use. And, on a related note, Jeff Cooper has a reputation that exceeds his accomplishments. The best information that I can find shows that he spent the battle of Guadalcanal as the training officer on Gen. Vandegrift’s staff. Not leading a platoon. Not on the line, pulling a trigger. And his coy evasions when asked about his real-world experience with gunfighting are revealing, if one cares to view them objectively. (If you have documentation about Cooper’s real-world experience, please drop me a line. I am happy to revise my opinion.) I have no doubt that he was qualified to teach people how to shoot on a range. Beyond that, a grain of salt is required. I prefer to get my advice on defense & gunfighting from men who have actually been there & done that; Massad Ayoob, Jim Cirillo, etc. Am I a qualifications snob? No, I am an results snob.
Ok, got it out of my system.
No, I have not personally. It is possible due to a defective firing pin spring that allows the pin to travel forward due to inertia.
Of course this would be a problem with any auto loader with the same defective spring.
Maintenance is required with any tool.
The Model 12 with a Cutts compensator and a Simmons rib, was the gun for skeet for a long time.
though I would prefer the FN FAL or the M-14...a semi auto needs a piston, and not direct gas impingement...you might notice that all the major manufacturers are rethinking the AR design and putting in gas pistons....an idea that was 40+ years coming.
Washered faucet, internal combustion engine (gas or diesel), manual transmisssion, differential axle, steam turbine, roller bearing, franklin stove, bifocal glasses, incandescent bulb, arc welder, pneumatic cylinder, pneumatic tire, AC squirrel-cage motor, brushed DC motor, bicycle, rotary hydraulic damper, compound-pulley racheting winch (”come-along”), variable-speed aircraft propeller, band saw, outboard motor, etc.
I think the hammer and chisel have been around for a long time if I remember correctly. Mine still work.
I’m coming to thing of a personal gun as signaling apparatus.
One signal it sends is “Go away, NOW!”
But another is this: “Here I am, shoot me!”
The Huks (Hukbalahap) were much later. They were a Communist organization formed to fight the Japanese. You are probably thinking of the Moros. They were (and are) Mohammedans.
Shot-out guns is the key. My first experience with a 1911 was in the Army. I had a hard time hitting the target at 10 yards because of the extremely old, abused, loose-actioned, practically smoothbore example I was shooting. We joked the thing was actually made in 1911. I was only shooting to blow off ammo so we wouldn’t have to take it back, but I felt sorry for the officers who had earlier tried to qualify with that thing — they didn’t.
This was just before the Beretta switchover, so nobody was putting any effort into keeping up the 1911 stock. Replacement of the worn ones was awaiting the Berettas, and we were near the tail end of that.
Anyway, I’d hate 1911s if I let that one set my opinion for all. Even with that, I still preferred a halfway-decent 1911 over the Beretta regardless of caliber. I can’t stand the fat grips.
A piston adds additional moving parts that reciprocate while attached to the barrel, which is why a DI AR is more accurate then a FN-FAL or a an M-14. Piston driven AR’s have been around since the 60s and occasionally make a comeback until people start to use them. Then they go back to DI.
Yeah, but how many machines do you know that can move, communicate, consume multiple fuels, be aware of their surroundings through sight, sound, touch, smell, temperatire, etc, reason, self-improve, crate language and replicate itself?
IIRC, serial numbers were only required with the 1968 firearms act.
BTW, add another gun to your list: The Lee-Enfield Mark III. It was designed in 1907, based on an 1895 design, and is still manufactued to this day.
your talking about quick second shots or bursts(and granted, that is important in a military weapon).
an M1A1(civilian m14) is as accurate as any bolt action rifles for single aimed shots..
from what I have read...the new pistons in the ARs use a new system that does not throw off subsequent shots like the old pistons use to.
direct impingement makes for dirty actions and chambers...you can have them.
“Sucks (Reasoned Argument)”
Sucks isn’t a “reasoned argument”...and neither was the article. More proof of the dumbing down of America when someone thinks that article was “reasoned”.
100 year old electrical distribution system.
I’m a BSEE specialized in Power Systems. I started my career in the utility industry.
About the only thing in common with a 100 year old design and today’s is they both distribute electricity.
We had two M-14 for the team. They really made the 16 feel like a pop gun, but they were heavy, and for the weight, you might as well carry a M-60 belt fed.
If I had my druthers, I wouldn’t send anyone out without a good snipe rifle, or two. It looks like the ragheads use a lot of AK’s, so the 16 can more than reach them, and better.
Soldiers have always complained about knock down power. Only .50 like mass and velocity can do that. As a hunter you know shooting a moving deer at any distance is hard. Now imagine a enemy, with loose cloths, and you being shot at, or up on adrenaline, or tired, or concrete dust and sweat and dust in your eyes. So, a lot of supposed hits are misses. A lot. Further, you get anything more than a luck nick by the .226 round, and you are in big trouble. Like bleed to death trouble, or infection if you get past the bleeding part. A lot of soldiers have never hunted a deer or the like. Even with a .30 something round, a 30’6 you hit them in the chest, and they run, but they’re dead.
I’m not sure, but it seems to me that infantry has morphed from a attacking main force, to a recon mission to find, id and call in heavier weapons. Hence the drift to more personal protection, lighter weapons. Find the bad guys, protect yourself, and dial up some American technology that delivers faster than a Domino’s pizza.
Anyway, it’s a little academic. If you are in a jamb, at pistol distance( 10-15 feet ) you got to go with what you got. Better than any particular weapon is practice time.
Pretty much any social animal. Some do it better than others.
One of the things I like about it is that I can feel it in my hand. It is sharp, it cuts. The Glocks and likes feel like clay, slippery, undefined,....spooggy.
Maybe it’s just me.
Myabe they really do suck, and that's why it always feels good to stick one in your pants.
“What other 100-year old design is still in daily use?”
The airplane wing?
Internal combustion engines?
Radios?
Telephone?
Smokeless gun powders?
Barrel rifling?
X-Ray Machines?
Intaglio printing presses?
Also: Gravity. Fire. Water. Wind. All are as old as the Earth, yet, still work as designed.
Using age as a “reason” is both ignorant and retarded.
Run a couple of hundred rounds through an XP and they really smooth out. Most weapons needs some break in.
LLS
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