Posted on 02/15/2007 1:40:58 PM PST by Serb29
CERSKA, Bosnia (Reuters) -- The 18-year-old gunman who shot five people to death in a Salt Lake City, Utah, shopping mall was a survivor of the siege that ended in the Srebrenica massacre of 8,000 Muslims in Bosnia's 1992-95 war, a cousin said on Wednesday. Sulejman Talovic, who was killed by police after Monday's shooting spree in which he also wounded four people, fled his village with his family during the Bosnia war to Srebrenica, a U.N.-protected enclave, Redzo Talovic said." "They spent two years in the town, during which Bosnian Serb forces besieged the enclave and Talovic's grandfather was killed by shellfire, Redzo Talovic said. When the Bosnian Serbs overran the town in 1995, taking away and massacring some 8,000 Muslim men and boys, Talovic and his mother were evacuated by the United Nations and later reunited with his father, Redzo Talovic said. "They were a good, quiet family, and I remember that he was a nice kid when he was 4 or 5, maybe a little bit playful," he said, standing in front of the burned-out shell of the Talovic family home in the village of Talovici, eastern Bosnia.
(Excerpt) Read more at cnn.com ...
Why people feel the need to make crap up to cover up what happened is beyond me. No, it wasn't the only atrocity in that war. No, it wasn't only Serbs who committed atrocities. But that doesn't mean this one didn't happen.
The evidence that it didn't happen is on a par with the evidence that the twin towers were purposefully detonated from within.
I never said that Muslims did not fight for the Nazis.
However, your essentialist claim that "the muslims fought for the Nazis" is patently false.
Tell Ousemane Kasse that he fought for the Nazis:
http://www.alterites.com/element/evenement/image/evenement_i_2_1299.jpg
Well, you are violating the rules and conducting yourself without a modicum of respect or this forum or its participants. I suspect he's trying to provoke a reply from me, but I don't respond to terrorist threats.
I don't believe a terrorist threat has ever been issued against you. But I do think you're doing what's typical of your style -- making outlandish bigoted claims without backing them up and then whining snide indirect insults when your dishonesty is revealed.
well put. it seems that some people here aren't against massacres when "the wrong people" are the victims.
Very 1939.
Where did you dig this phoney up? Some French website.
LOL ZImmie
No moral equivalency here. Killing is wrong. Of course, you are all to happy to dismiss murderers not committed by Muslims.
It's not that you're anti-murder. You're just anti-Muslim.
I see you don't "Support the troops." How telling.
The crap is all produced and digested by the PC islamophile apologists who desperately need to exploit the exploitable like some around here.
Zimmie---Goebbels would be proud.
Well, do you support that Muslim man who fought the Nazis, or do you call him a "phoney"?
" Nevermind that most Muslims opposed the Nazis."
That assertion is not worth addressing because it just ain't true.
" Nevermind the, what was it again, 180,000 West African Muslim troops who enlisted to fight the Nazis."
The French Legion and a great many African troops did fight for DeGaulle. Just where do you find any other likely muslims enlisting in great numbers other than those in service to Jordan (and later engaged against israel) or some other pre-existing British construct?
More than 2000 dead might reflect anything from attrition over a fairly long period, to an intense battle, to a relative massacare. Such a number would not fall far outside any bell curve in any war. The massacare you and the media refer to is:
Not only not proven but disproven.
Still used continualy as justification and still inflated to epic numbers which, again, have been disproven.
Even so "A Massacare" does not prove "Ethnic Cleansing". Ethnic cleansing before Clinton was characterized by rampant immigration from Albania and into Kosovo, creating a muslim majority in what Serbs considered their heartland. Since Clinton, ethnic cleansing has been blatant, widespread, and entirely muslim on Christian/Albanian on Serb.
Finally, are you a Monty Python fan?
Your debate style contributed to one of my favorite Python sketches...
Agreed. But "SS" does not equate to "Nazi." The Wehrmacht as a whole fought for Hitler.
In the second; This entire thread addresses Croatia/Albania/Serbia and NOT all of Europe and Russia where those millions of Germans, mostly not Nazis, were assigned. The 13th SS was never intended to serve outside of its own neighborhood and probably would not have done so.
Agreed. Which is why all this "Teh Muslim = Teh Nazi" is ridiculous.
The massacare you and the media refer to is: Not only not proven but disproven.
I have yet to see any convincing "disproof" beyond a revision of the numbers killed and a slew of partisan websites excusing the murder of Muslims because, y'know, Muslims were killing people too. Talk about moral equivalency. The French Legion and a great many African troops did fight for DeGaulle. Just where do you find any other likely muslims enlisting in great numbers other than those in service to Jordan (and later engaged against israel) or some other pre-existing British construct?
France's North African troops, and the Soviet army.
The French NA troops were the ones I referred to, not clearly enough. They were quite heroic and Americans have probably never been able to fathom that 'natives' would willingly fight for their 'colonial oppressors'.
Soviet citizens are another matter I'd omitted. I had a friend in the Seventies who had been part of the White Army, the Ukrainian Resistance Army, and generally hated Stalin...until someone invaded the homeland and he was instantly part of the Red Army fighting Germans.
(He also became part of the Waffen SS fighting Stalin, a German prisoner (twice), an escapee, a Legionnaire fighting Uncle Ho/General Giap, and, when I met him, a Master Sergeant again fighting the latter gentlemen.)
No matter what you may believe about the typical muslim, Hitler's message was widely and well received in muslim states and communities, probably even many in the Soviet Union and surely in Egypt, Albania, etc. Add to that the territorial hatreds and prior German influence in Croatia and elsewhere, and there WAS a direct Nazi/Islamist linkage forged as soon as the two came together. Judging from the Islamist regimes and Islamist movements across the middle east today, and the 'Palestine' vs 'the Jews' cant associated with the entire area - I'd have to guess that the attraction has not faded too very much.
I believe he does. His name is Ousmane and he's from Senegal. If a Muslim name and a Muslim country of origin are all you need to be sure that this SLC murderer is a stark raving Islamist, then certainly you'll agree that Mr. Kasse is a Muslim.
never heard of him must be one of those French colonials who fought for deGaulle and are getting their pension
The troops whose accomplishments you derided in #82 as a "muslim fantasy"? Whose very existence you dismissed in #73 as "bizarre macchiavelian rewriting of history"? Glad to see you're coming around to reality.
but if he is then he is an apostate:
The Qur'an says: "Fight and slay the pagans [Christians] wherever ye find them and seize them, confine them, and lie in wait for them in every place of ambush" (Surah 9:5)
First and foremost, I don't think Mr. Kasse asked for you to opine on his piety.
Second, there are three things wrong with your Qur'anic exegesis and its application to WW2. Namely:
1) The passage in question refers to the Battle of Tabuk, which was not in WW2.
2) You mistranslate. The Arabic work for pagans/idolaters is kuffar and the word for Christians is nasara.
3) It has been stated before that the Nazi leadership did not practice Christianity, nor did they belong to any of the schismatic/heretic sects claiming to be Christian. Rather, their religious beliefs were a sort of neo-paganism. Thus, if you want to apply Qur'an 9:5 to the 20th century, it would be the 13th Handschar's Muslims who were the apostates, as they not only did not fight the Nazi pagans, but sided with them.
Thanks for playing.
It was ruled as such by the ICTY in Prosecutor v. Krstic.
The French NA troops were the ones I referred to, not clearly enough. They were quite heroic and Americans have probably never been able to fathom that 'natives' would willingly fight for their 'colonial oppressors'.
And I was referring to France's West African troops and, less directly, other African troops. You're right, of course, that many Americans have never understood why colonial subjects would fight on the side of their imperial overlords. It's a testament to their understanding of the Nazi menace that they were willing to put their local struggles for freedom on hold in order to help save the entire world.
Soviet citizens are another matter I'd omitted. I had a friend in the Seventies who had been part of the White Army, the Ukrainian Resistance Army, and generally hated Stalin...until someone invaded the homeland and he was instantly part of the Red Army fighting Germans. (He also became part of the Waffen SS fighting Stalin, a German prisoner (twice), an escapee, a Legionnaire fighting Uncle Ho/General Giap, and, when I met him, a Master Sergeant again fighting the latter gentlemen.)
Your friend sounds like a walking military history of the mid-20th century.
No matter what you may believe about the typical muslim, Hitler's message was widely and well received in muslim states and communities, probably even many in the Soviet Union and surely in Egypt, Albania, etc.
I don't doubt Hitler's message was widely received in the Muslim world. It was widely received the world over, after all. However, it's important to note that the number of Muslims who took up arms for the Nazis was far smaller than the number of Muslims who took up arms against the Nazis.
Add to that the territorial hatreds and prior German influence in Croatia and elsewhere, and there WAS a direct Nazi/Islamist linkage forged as soon as the two came together. Judging from the Islamist regimes and Islamist movements across the middle east today, and the 'Palestine' vs 'the Jews' cant associated with the entire area - I'd have to guess that the attraction has not faded too very much.
I can't speak to whether the attraction has continued from the past or is something new that claims WW2-era antecedents. We need recognize is that it is real and growing in the present age. Insulting the WW2 service of Muslim troops does nothing for our cause. In fact, I would go so far as to say that the people who say such things are sowing and nourishing the "Clash of Civilizations" that Osama calls for. There's something very very low about insulting an 85+ year old war veteran who put his life on the line to defeat Hitler. That kind of man is many things, but "phoney" is not one of them.
disgusting
November 2, 1943 Himmler's telegram to Mufti:
""To the Grand Mufti: The National Socialist movement of Greater Germany has, since its inception, inscribed upon its flag the fight against the world Jewry. It has therefore followed with particular sympathy the struggle of freedom-loving Arabs, especially in Palestine, against Jewish interlopers. In the recognition of this enemy and of the common struggle against it lies the firm foundation of the natural alliance that exists between the National Socialist Greater Germany and the freedom-loving Muslims of the whole world. In this spirit I am sending you on the anniversary of the infamous Balfour declaration my hearty greetings and wishes for the successful pursuit of your struggle until the final victory.
Reichsfuehrer S.S. Heinrich Himmler"
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