Confederate Kook Still Smarts Under Civil War "Occupation" (El Rushbo Defends The Union Alert)

Rush Limbaugh.com ^ | 12/04/2006 | Rush Limbaugh

[goldstategop]

RUSH: John in Shreveport, Louisiana. Hello.

CALLER: Mr. Rush, don't you think you're being a hypocrite when you're not -- when you don't want the Iraqis to decide the problems themselves, especially since Abraham Lincoln took two -- two generals named Lincoln [sic--Grant] and Sherman who were responsible for the deaths of 59,000 southern people? And since you hate Confederate heritage that much, don't you think that we should allow the people of Iraq to decide their own fate?

RUSH: (Laughing.) Gee. I hate Confederate heritage?

CALLER: No kidding.

RUSH: On the basis of what do you say that?

CALLER: Okay, allow me to quote you from 2001: "The American Civil War was the first conflict in human history to set a people free from the bondage of slavery." Your quote, sir.

RUSH: Yeah?

CALLER: And that's not --

RUSH: Well, the point is, we fought --

CALLER: -- power --

RUSH: Are we going to have this argument, Steve?

CALLER: Yes, sir, we are, if you've got the nerve to hold it!

RUSH: I'll have this argument with you any time you want. I've been hearing from you guys since I started this show. I know, it's about states' rights, it was about freedom; it was about independence. But it was about preserving the union -- and Abraham Lincoln knew that you couldn't preserve an America with the institutions defined by our Constitution if one man was allowed to own another.

CALLER: Well, you could not preserve the Constitution as long as you could override it by military power and invasion.

RUSH: Well, there was the preservation of the union that was the number one --

CALLER: How about the preservation of the Constitution, shouldn't that be predominant?

RUSH: Look, you still want to secede? What's your solution?

CALLER: We have no choice, we're under occupation now. The thing about it is you still have to lie about Abraham Lincoln to prove your, to make your point.

RUSH: I'm not lying about Abraham Lincoln. What do you mean, you're still under occupation?

CALLER: Put it this way. The South was not allowed to vote its own way; we're not going to allow Iraq to vote its own government, either.

RUSH: But we did.

CALLER: Do you think we're really abiding by that? What they voted for, we're trying to subvert it by military occupation. No difference than what they did here for 12 years in Louisiana. You don't think we don't see that? You don't think we don't see you as a hypocrite for what you say about, oh, yeah, preserve the union, but let's never mind, let's take away the vote from those who are the voting citizens --

RUSH: I cannot believe this!

CALLER: -- Constitution!

RUSH: I can't believe this. You are taking out your frustrations at having lost the Civil War on me and claiming I'm a hypocrite because of my stance on the Iraq war?

CALLER: Yes, sir.

RUSH: Which I don't even think you know what it is.

CALLER: I don't think you know -- I don't think you know who Abraham Lincoln was.

RUSH: I certainly know who Abraham Lincoln was. He's one of the greatest presidents in the history of the country.

CALLER: Who said that --

RUSH: And it wasn't because he defeated the south. It was because he preserved the union.

CALLER: He preserved the union by trampling the Constitution!

RUSH: He did not trample the Constitution. He suspended habeas corpus. He did do some things I wish Bush would do.

CALLER: Like kill 59,000 innocent civilians?

RUSH: Are you talking about Sherman's march through Atlanta?

CALLER: And -- and -- and Grant's shelling the city of Vicksburg. Hello?

RUSH: It won the war, didn't it? You ever heard of Gettysburg? It won the war and that was the objective. I'll tell you what I wish Bush would do that Lincoln did. Take all these anti-war agitators and send 'em to Canada. Send the National Guard in there. Send Harry Reid over to Baghdad if he's going to be so socially --

CALLER: Like that Ohio Congressman Vallandigham, huh?

RUSH: Absolutely, like that Ohio congressman, that Democrat that was snatched out of his house and sent down to Jefferson Davis, who also didn't want him.

CALLER: Well, at least I got you to acknowledge that.

RUSH: Acknowledge what?

CALLER: Well, the fact that Lincoln did have his secret police who went into people's houses, pulled them out in the middle of the night, and had them -- and had them --

RUSH: You know what? I hope before you die you learn to thank God for Abraham Lincoln.

CALLER: I hope before you die you learn what a racist and a bigot and a power-hungry maniac he was.

RUSH: I'm the racist and the bigot?

CALLER: I didn't say you were. I said he was!

RUSH: Oh. Abraham Lincoln? How in the world you can call a guy who ended slavery a racist and a bigot? I have heard everything now. Everything, in 22 years of hosting this program, I have heard everything.

[ml/nj]

Consider yourself pressed.

From: Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11, 22 (1905).

Mr. Justice Harlan delivered the opinion of the court:

We pass without extended discussion the suggestion that the particular section of the statute of Massachusetts now in question ( 137, chap. 75) is in derogation of rights secured by the preamble of the Constitution of the United States. Although that preamble indicates the general purposes for which the people ordained and established the Constitution, it has never been regarded as the source of any substantive power conferred on the government of the United States, or on any of its departments. Such powers embrace only those expressly granted in the body of the Constitution, and such as may be implied from those so granted. Although, therefore, one of the declared objects of the Constitution was to secure the blessings of liberty to all under the sovereign jurisdiction and authority of the United States, no power can be exerted to that end by the United States, unless, apart from the preamble, it be found in some express delegation of power, or in some power to be properly implied therefrom. 1 Story, Const. 462.

ML/NJ

[gondramB]

>>Now if we had the votes of enough of the remaining justices to form a majority in a Supreme Court decision then you could quite correctly state that Constitutionally only Congress can suspend habeas corpus. But you don't have that, do you? All you have is Taney's opinion.<<

I thought the supreme court ruled against Lincoln at the time and he ignored the ruling.

[Cogadh na Sith]

Settle down, Jonnie Reb....

The issue is already decided.

The Confederacy: "It's dead, Jim."

[beckysueb]

Yes, it is!

[beckysueb]

My bigger beef here is with the anti-Southern crowd who think like northeastern liberals--all Southerners are rednecks, all Southerners are racists, etc. And, the crowd that ignores the fact that the vast, vast majority of Confederate soldiers were fighting in the defense of their homes from an invading army.

You nailed it! The Northern Army was cruel and barbarous to innocent southern women and children who weren't fighting any war. They treated the southern POW's cruelly, too.

[theseus ship]

. . . and if you think the second war for American independance was about slavery, then you're as dumb as liberals say conservatives are.

Even the name is fallacious: A "CIVIL WAR" would have been the proper term if the N and S were both fighting over control of D.C. The South was not. The South was fighting a budding empire for control over its own destiny. Repeat: "The Civil War" wasn't over slavery. Repeat that until you can flush out that public school bouldercrap you've been stewed in.

Southerners made the mistake of trusting their fellow Americans and their own political leadership. We should have simply kept up an insurgency and driven the empire out through attrition.

[theseus ship]

I don't think that is as true anymore. Our leaders here have sold us down the river. You've just not picked up on that yet, but if you only check the indicators since ~1962 . . .

No thanks, I'm going to Oz to finish my Ph.D, and I would love to stay. Getting a rifle is not as hard as my NRA lit. makes it out to be, and there's no aquiescence to an invasion of foreigners, promising a multi-cult nightmare here in the future (ya, I've lived in Mexico--good luck with that).

Say what you wish about it, but in Australia, I'll be able to be sure my grandchildren will speak English. You? Not so much.

[theseus ship]

I wouldn't be so sure. Say, were you aware of the percentages of combat troops from the South in today's military?

. . . just sayin'

[rustbucket]

If Lincoln's Congress, Marshall, Taney aren't enough for you, here are some others.

SCOTUS Justice Story:

Hitherto, no suspension of the writ has been authorized by Congress since the establishment of the Constitution. It would seem, as the power is given to Congress to suspend the writ of habeas corpus in case of rebellion or invasion, that the right to judge whether the exigency had arisen, must exclusively belong to that body."

U. S. Attorney General Cushing (1857):

"The opinion is expressed by commentators on the Constitution, that the right to suspend the writ of habeas corpus, and also that of judging when the exigency has arisen, belongs exclusively to Congress."

President Thomas Jefferson:

Thomas Jefferson in 1807 applied to Congress for the authority to suspend habeas corpus for three months. He didn't get it, and he didn't suspend habeas corpus.

Here are those pesky Founders of the New York Ratification Committee speaking about who has the power to suspend habeas corpus:

"That every person restrained of his liberty is entitled to an inquiry into the lawfulness of such restraint, and to a removal thereof, if unlawful; and that such inquiry and removal ought not to be denied or delayed, except when, on account of public danger, the Congress shall suspend the privilege of the writ of habeas corpus."

1856 Law Dictionary:

"The habeas corpus can be suspended only by authority of the legislature. The constitution of the United States provides, that the privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended unless when, in cases of invasion and rebellion, the public safety may require it."

[Pelham]

South Carolina might have agreed with you that the U.S. should have uniform tariffs. But since they had decided to leave the union it was a moot question.

As for the issue of "spin", I'd say it helps to know the subject well before displaying 'attitude'. But then that's just my preference.

[Gondring]

So, I suppose you feel that the states never seceded... So then how did Lincoln have quorum?

[Pelham]

That makes zero sense if you only stop and think about it. Any goods destined for Northern consumers would sooner or later have to pay the Northern tariff. Even had the SOuthern tariff been zero it would have made no sense to land them in the south.

Lincoln understood the situation better than you. He would lose all the revenue that the southern ports had provided. Moreover all shipping that could go to the southern free ports would, and goods would be smuggled into the north. It is possible to collect tariffs at ports, and nearly impossible to do on a long frontier between USA and CSA.

Having been stationed in Charleston for a number of years I can say that the tariff collection point in 1861 was in the Customs House, which, if I recall correctly, was on East Bay Street. Right by the wharfs. Where the cargo was landed. Not miles away in a fort.

Then it must be a great mystery to you why South Carolina cared if the Union spent their money to man a pointless fort. But you surely have some theory what the fort was for, and I'm betting that theory will be greatly entertaining. So please enlighten us.

[Cogadh na Sith]

OK, how about just plain old 'Kooks'?

Refighting the US Civil War is one of the dopiest and unproductive things I can thing of.

The South lost big time and the winners run the country--that is how it works; that is how it has always worked: It is Just and Right.

Now get over it.

[Pelham]

the campaign would have evolved in a way that is clear in the historical record but forgotten today.

I'll admit to being among those who have forgotten. So let's have a clue.

[Pelham]

Present! Now where's my howitzer?

[Cogadh na Sith]

Southerners made the mistake of trusting their fellow Americans and their own political leadership. We should have simply kept up an insurgency and driven the empire out through attrition.

You could still crash some airplanes into buildings or suicide bomb some Kentucky Fried Chicken stores.....

Like the muslims: It's over, you lost, get over it.

[Pelham]

I am glad to see that you admit that the South was in rebellion.

I believe that's known as "a fact not in evidence". But it's good to see that you give your imagination such free reign.

[Pelham]

Wow. The Nazi Card.

You win.

[Pelham]

They met their match in Lincoln.

As did the 10,000 northerners he jailed without trial. The newspapers he demolished. The Maryland legislature he disbanded. Anyone who underestimated Lincoln's willingness to use force met their match.

[Pelham]

In this, your arguments are disingenuous.

In you, I've met my match.

You guys toss that statement out by Lincoln and we are suppose to be shocked because he was going to obey the Constitution and not end slavery were it was legal?

I know it comes as a shock to many Lincoln admirers, since they often challenge the quote. It's quite different from the myth they grew up with. When I get a chance I'll post Frederick Douglass' words at the 10th memorial of Lincoln's death- those often get a fine reaction as well.