Posted on 03/29/2005 8:58:34 AM PST by Long Cut
We, the Witness Protection Program For Freepers, aka the Wild Turkeys, aka the Coalition of the Sane, have through mutual discussion and rigourous thought, determined that:
1. The discussion threads regarding Terri Schiavo (hereafter referred to as "TS") have become too full of innuendo, rumormongering, hyperbole, hysteria, namecalling, paranoia, and general poor behavior to warrant participation.
2. Said threads have degenerated into "echo chambers", wherein the same, common thoughts are continually posted again and again, and the same old disreputable, unconfirmed and/or false urban myths are propagated.
3. Anyone who joins in said theads with alternative viewpoints to the most extreme posts are routinely driven away with slander, accusations, and vile namecalling.
4. No data or evidence contrary to the "prevailing opinions" are accepted, considered, or discussed; and in fact are rejected outright in most instances.
5. That the continued calls for armed insurrection, military or paramilitary involvement, impeachements of politicians and judges, and death threats are embarassing, stupid, shortsighted, doomed to failure, and contrary to most if not all conservative thought prior to this case, as well as damaging in the extreme to FR and the conservative movement as a whole.
6. That such emotional, hyperbolic, and propaganda-driven hysteria is in fact contrary to all conservatives USED to stand for.
7. That the holding up of swastika and other Nazi imagery towards the police and the Bushes, the use of children as political props, and the disruption of the peace at the Woodside Hospice can only reflect badly on conservatives in general, and should be discouraged.
8. That the pursuit of this issue to the exclusion of all others by the GOP has damaged, perhaps beyond repair, the pursuit of other important issues as well as the reputation of the GOP, FR, and conservatism.
The WPPFF is NOT of one mind as to the case of TS or its correct outcome. In fact, wide disagreement exists within our little group. However, we are united in our wish that reason and sanity be respected in the discussion, as well as the rights of all parties involved or participating. We wish to discuss this as adults and intellectuals, as conservatives and as FRiends, not as children screaming past each other on some playground of hysteria. We wish for facts and evidence to be provided, discussed reasonably, and considered fairly.
We reject all accusations of Naziism, "death cultism", or other slander as methods of debate. We reject the practice of "spamming" multiple threads, of posting unending vanities, and the posting of propaganda and calls for violence. We reject, in fact, all unseemly and childish behavior which has come to characterize this case on FR.
We DO invite others to come and reasonably discuss the issue. We have no problem with FReepers who wish to debate in a rational and fair manner, and with due respect for their fellow FReepers. We have NO problem with those whose views are formed by religion; however we reject "preaching" or "being beaten with a Bible" as legitemite debate tactics. Not all of us are Believers, and such tactics only cheapen the source.
If a FReeper finds this an acceptable meansd to discuss this and other issues, they are welcome to join in and participate. Those who find pleasure in attacks, flame-baiting, slander, stalking, and personal atacks will be ignored, and their egos will go unfed.
We assume this thread to be a zone of sanity in an overheated atmosphere. Thus, a general amnesty is in effect. If posters conduct themselves within the guidlines above, we will be happy to discuss and debate with you. If a poster wishes to apologize for past slips of the tongue, or for possible "over-the-top" statements to another, it will be graciously accepted, and your company welcome.
Please bring a sense of humor; we feel that too many have been taking themselves too seriously lately.
Let the discussion begin!
Signed,
The WPPFF, aka The Wild Turkeys, aka the Coalition of the Sane.
The political parasites, and their incompetent lawyering certainly didn't help much. IN fact, I think they made it far worse, and may have created more problems for all of us...
That was my point. Maybe you stated your feelings on the matter previously, but I hadnt seen them. I dont disagree, that if those are the facts, than that is sad indeed.
But the fact remains beyond that, that a family squabble affects only those involved. The raw judicial abuses in this case will in the end, affect us all.
Following the law is a good thing. We musn't condemn it merely because an unsavory historical figure also followed the law. Your argument goes too far.
I agree wholeheartedly that the root of the problem is the breakdown of family and morals.
However, even the worst family breakdowns do not generally result in members of the family being put to death by order of the government.
It is in the starvation death (method) of a person due to their disability (object) by order of the government (means) because her life was not worth living (reasoning) where I find a close parallel with the T-4 Euthanasia program. I believe that even though the Nazi analogy has been beaten to death in endless other discussions, these four elements form a nexus that compels us to, if it is the truth we seek, make the comparison and ask ourselves where the decisions made in this case will bring us next.
So what happened to the vow of "Till death do us part" when they got married?
I realize she had the electrodes...they probably could have removed them or done a PET scan. I was replying to your comment about others being scared, not Terri's condition specifically. My point was that Cranford and his associates are advocating that Alzheimer's patients should be starved in the same way Terri is, that is something you cannot debunk, it is in his own words. The man is pure evil, and vulnerable seniors have every right to be scared.
Another WPPFF member to add to the ping list.
Poohbah makes a good case that the lawyers that the parasites provided deliberately threw the case. Pooh?
"Maybe you stated your feelings on the matter previously, but I hadnt seen them."
That seems to be prevalant on all the Schiavo threads. But, see, here we are, in the backroom having one of the most reasonable discussions about this case on the entire forum. Ironic, isn't it?
I think they lawyer shopped too much, kept the ball rolling when there was no hope in sight. SOMEONE SHOULD have told them the truth years ago, that they never could win in court. This would have eased EVERYONE'S suffering. At this point, I can see why the President calls for tort reform.
I don't know if it was judicial abuses in this case, or whether it was really bad law being passed by the legislature of Florida that led to this.
From what I see, trying to be unbiased, is that Greer made the best decisions he could based on the evidence and the law, and I'm almost betting that Greer himself doesn't like the rulings he had to make, but had no real choice. I don't know that for a fact, but if his rulings had been outside the law, I'm absolutely certain that at some point in tehpast decade, someone would have overturned him... I just... don't know.
Hell, I call for tort reform... :)
Oh, that's right. The reason given for doing this to Terri was because three Schiavos suddenly remembered it was her wish, seven years after the fact. And after the husband argued to a court that he needed hundred of thousands of dollars to keep her alive.
Yep, the Schindler's attorneys chose not to introduce any. You blame the court, when you should be blaming the attorneys. Judges don't call witnesses.
I don't suppose you have any evidence to substantiate that assertion?
I don't think they've ever found a cure for bad lawyers....
No, the analogy is correct.
Following the Law, without conscience, or moral guidance is what leads to those ends.
The only Difference Between Greer,Whittemore, the 11th Circ.Majority opinion, and Eichmann, is in the Scope of the Evil they have done.
Greer always had the discretion to have an independent eval done. He chose not to. Congress Mandated a New Hearing, And excepting Judge Wilson, the 11th Circuit decided that the Law of the Land didnt matter.
Thats my point in all of this.
It would have taken nothing to ship Terri to say Walter Reade, have an independant Medical Staff issue their opinion, and the Judges make an Informed decision.
They travelled down the road they chose, instead of letting the facts lead them to the truth.
Can Terri be rehabbed to not nead a feeding tube...some say yes, some say no.... Does she have cognitive ability, some say yes some say no.
The Courts are supposed to find the Equtiy, and Justice.
In choosing to not know, they have chosen the opposite.
Many who disapprove of withdrawing feeding tubes from patients who are not terminally ill still disapprove of the hysteria, hyperbole, false accusations, meanspiritedness, unchristian attitudes and hatefulness expressed on other Terri Schiavo-related threads.
Do you seriously mean to assert that Courts dont routinely call in experts, when the facts are of a nture not readily apparent
to the Court?
his rulings were not foreordained. he considered evidence, credited that which favored MS and ruled in his favor. the reviewing bodies are not permitted to refind facts, they can only rule on law or abuse of discretion. what the fed law and a de novo hearing would have done is provide a fresh set of eyes to look at the very same evidence and decide it anew. that was what Congress intended and that did not happen. i agree that the lawyering was absymal on the Schindler's behalf.
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