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What Must I Do To Be Saved?
Worthynews.com ^ | July 11th, 1875 | D. L. Moody

Posted on 01/21/2005 6:34:28 AM PST by P-Marlowe

Jesus Christ is calling you ...

What Must I Do To Be Saved?

Dwight Lyman Moody's Last Sermon in London. Preached in Camberwell Hall, Sunday Evening, July 11th, 1875.

Suppose you do not want to hear a sermon (on this last night) so much as you want to know how to be saved. I want, if I can, to answer that question, "What must I do to be saved?" There is no question that can come before us in this world that is so important; and I think that there is not a man in this audience to-night who does not feel interested in it.

I heard a man, when he was going out the other night, saying: "I do not believe in sudden conversion. I do not believe what the preacher said to-night, that a man could come in here a sinner, and go out a Christian." Now, I want to say that I do not believe in any other conversion. I do not believe that there ever has been a conversion in the world that was not instantaneous, and I want you to mark this: not but what many cannot tell the day nor the hour when they were converted. I will admit that: they may not know the time; but that does not change the great fact that there was a time when they passed from death unto life; that there was a time when they were born [ABCOG: begotten] into the kingdom of God. There must have been a minute when their name was written in the Book of Life. There must have been a time when they were ere lost, and a time when they were saved; but we may not be conscious when the change takes place. I believe the conversion of some is like the rising of the sun, and of others like the flashing of a meteor. But both are instantaneous, really, in the sight of God. There must be a time when life begins to rise; when the dead soul begins to live.

Now, this evening I want to take up some of the Bible illustrations. In the first place, there is the ark. There was a minute when Noah was outside of the ark, and another minute when he was inside. And, bear in mind, it was the ark that saved Noah: it was not his righteousness; it was not his feelings; it was not his tears; it was not his prayers. It was the ark that saved him. If he had tried to make an ark of his feelings, or of his prayers, or of his life, he would have been swept away: he would have been drowned with the rest. But, you see, it was the ark that saved him.

When I was in Manchester, I went into the gallery one Sunday night to have a talk with a few inquirers; and while I was talking, a business man came in, and took his seat on the outskirts of the audience. I think, at first, he had come merely to criticize, and that he was a little skeptical. At last I saw he was in tears. I turned to him, and said, " My friend, what is your difficulty?" "Well," he said, "Mr. Moody, the fact is, I cannot tell." I said, "Do you believe you are a sinner?" He said, "Yes; I know that." I said, "Christ is able to save you"; and I used one illustration after another, but he did not see it. At last I thought of the ark, and I said: "Was it Noah's feelings that saved him? Was it Noah's righteousness that saved him, or was it the ark?" "I see it, now," said he; "I see it." He got up and shook hands with me, and said: "Good-night: I must go. I have to go away by the train to-night; but I was determined to be saved before I went. I see it now."

A few days after, he came and touched me on the shoulder, and said, "Do you know me? " I said, "I know your face, but do not remember where I have seen you." He said, "Do you not remember the illustration of the ark? I said, " Yes." "It has been all light ever since," said he. "I understand it now. Christ is the Ark; He saves me; and I must get inside Him." When I went down to Manchester again, and talked to the young friends there, I found he was the brightest light among them.

Let me take another illustration. There was the blood in Goshen. God says, "When I see the blood I will pass over you." Now He does not say, "When I see Moses' feelings, or the feelings of the people, I will pass over you"; or, "When I see you praying and weeping, I will pass over you"; but, "When I see the blood I will pass over you." It was the blood that saved them, not their righteousness. And a little child by that blood in Goshen was just as safe as Moses or Aaron or Joshua or Caleb. It was the blood that saved them. Look! there is the Jew taking the hyssop. He dips it in the blood, and strikes it on the doorpost. One minute it is not there: the next it is there. The moment the blood is there they are saved. God says, "When I see the blood I will pass over you." Some people say, "If I were only as good as that minister I should feel so safe" or, "If I were only as good as that mother in Israel who has been praying fifty years for the poor and unfortunate, should I not feel very safe? " My friends, if you are behind the blood, you are as safe as any man or woman who has been praying for fifty years. It is not their righteousness and good works that are going to save them. They never saved any one. God says, "When I see the blood I will pass over you." [ABCOG: Moody understands "pass over" to mean "bypass". It can also mean "hover over to protect"] And when I am sheltered behind the blood, then I am saved; and if I am not sheltered behind the blood, I am not saved. That was instantaneous, was not it? God says, "When I see the blood, it shall be a token, and I will not enter." Death came down and passed over Egypt; and where the blood was on the doorpost he passed by; but where the blood could not be found, in he went and took the victim away. The great palaces could not keep out death; wealth and position could not keep out death. He went and took the Crown Prince of Egypt; he took the richest and the poorest, the highest and the lowest. Death makes no distinction, except a man is behind the blood.

My friends, be wise to-night, and get behind the blood. The blood has been shed. The blood is on the mercy-seat; and while it is there you can be saved. God is imputing to His Son your trespasses and sins. He says, "I will look at the blood on the mercy-seat." Press in, my friends; make haste and get in tonight; for the Master of the house will rise up by-and-by and shut to the door, and then there will be no hope.

Take another case. When Israel went over Jordan, God told Joshua to have six cities of refuge; three on each side of Jordan. They were to be built on a hill, where they could be seen at a great distance, and the gates were to be kept open day and night. All obstacles were to be kept out of the way, the highway was to be kept in repair, the bridges and everything in good condition, so that nothing should hinder a poor man flying to the city of refuge. If a man killed another in those days, it was considered a great disgrace if the nearest relative did not take vengeance. "An eye for an eye, and a booth for a tooth." If a man killed another, the next kinsman was bound to put him to death. But if he could escape to a city of refuge he was tried, and if it was found he had not intentionally killed the man, he might live.

Now for my illustration. Suppose I have killed a man. I am out away in the woods working, and my axe slips out of my hand, and kills the man working with me. I know that his kinsman, his brother, is not far away. The news will soon reach him that I have killed his brother. What shall I do? I start for the city of refuge, over there away on the hill, ten miles off. I run - and we are told that in those days there used to be signposts with the word " Refuge," written in great red letters, so that a man might read as he ran; he need not stop. I have been told that there was a finger pointing towards the city, and a man who could not read might see the hand. A man does not have to learn to read before he can be saved. I see that hand; it is pointing to the city of refuge. The gate is wide open, but it is ten miles away. I leap over the highway. I do not look behind, to the right hand or to the left. I do not listen to this man or to that man, but, like John Bunyan, I put my fingers in my ears. The avenger has drawn his sword, and is on my track. I leap over into the highway; and, pretty soon, I can hear him behind me, Away I go, over that bridge, across that stream, up that mountain, along that valley, - but I can hear him coming nearer and nearer. There is the watchman; I can see him on the wall of the city. He gives notice to the inhabitants that a refugee is coming. I see the citizens on the wall of the city watching, and when I get near I hear them calling, "Run, run! Escape, escape! He is very near you! Run! escape!" I press on; leap through the gate of the city; and at last I am safe. One minute I am outside, and the next I am inside. One minute I am exposed to that sword; it may come down upon me at any minute: the next minute I am safe. Do I feel any difference? I feel I am behind the walls: that is the difference. It is a fact. There I am. The avenger can come up to the gates of the city, but he cannot come in. He cannot lay his sword upon me. The law of the land shields me now. I am under the protection of that city; I have saved my life; but I had no time for lingering.

A great many of you are trying to get into the city of refuge, and there are enemies trying to stop you, But do not listen to them. Your friends tell you to escape. Make haste! Delay not for a single moment!

In our country, before the war, when we had slavery, the slaves used to keep their eye on the north star. If a slave escaped to the Northern States, his old master could come and take him back into slavery. But there was another flag on American soil, and if they could only get under that flag they were for ever free. It is called the Union Jack. If they could only get as far north as Canada they were free; therefore they kept looking towards the north star. But they knew if they only got into the Northern States, there might be some one ready to take them back. So it is with every poor sinner who wants to come to Christ. Many men do all they can to hinder him; others will cheer him on. Let us help every man towards the north star. A man has escaped: perhaps he swims across the Mississippi river, or crosses the Ohio river in a little canoe. The master hears of it, and he takes his hounds and sets them on his track, and begins to hunt him down. The slave hears the hounds; and he knows that his master is coming to take him back to slavery. The line is a mile or two away. He escapes as fast as he can. He runs with all his might for the frontier, over hedges and ditches and rivers; away he goes for Canada. By-and-by he comes in sight of Canada. He can see that flag floating in front of him; and he knows that if he can only cross the line before his master and the hounds overtake him, he will be free for ever.

How the poor black man runs! leaping and bounding along; and at last, with one bound, he goes over the line. He is free! One minute he is a slave; the next minute he is a free man, under the flag of Queen Victoria, the British flag! (cheers [ABCOG: by British crowd]) - don't cheer, my friends, but come to Christ - and your laws say that no man under that flag shall be a slave. One minute he is a slave; the next minute he is a free man. One minute it is possible for his old master to drag him back; the next minute he shouts, "Free!"

If Christ tells us that we are free, we are free. My friends, Christ is calling to-night. Get out of the devil's territory as quick as you can. No slave in the Southern States had so hard a master as yours, nor so mean a master as Satan. Take my advice tonight, and escape for the liberty of your soul.

I can imagine some of you saying "I do not see how a man is really going to be converted all at once." Let me give you another illustration. Look down there. There are two soldiers. Now, if you bring those soldiers up to this platform, and ask them how they became soldiers, they will tell you this - that one moment they were citizens, and the next minute soldiers. What was it that made them soldiers? It was when they took the Queen's shilling. The moment they received that shilling they ceased to be citizens, and they became soldiers. Before they received that shilling they could go where they pleased; the next minute they came under the government and under the regulations of the army, and they must go where Queen Victoria sends them. They did not have to wait for the uniform. The minute they received the shilling they became soldiers. What made them soldiers? Receiving the shilling. What makes a man a Christian? Receiving Christ. "He came unto His own, and His own received Him not: but as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God."

Now, the gift of God is eternal life. Who will have the gift to-night? When I was down in Manchester I asked that question, and a man shouted in the meeting, "I will! " Who will have it now? Is not there some man here in London, as there was in Manchester, who will say that he will have the gift? Is it not a wonder to have to plead with so many to take the gift? "The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life." Who will have the gift now? (Many responses of "I will"; "I will.")

I can imagine one man down there who says "How about repentance? How about getting into the ark or the city of refuge before repentance?" My friend, let me ask you what is repentance? It is right-about-face! I think these soldiers understand that expression. Some one has said that every one is born with his back to God, and that conversion turns him right round. If you want to be converted, and want to repent, I will tell you what you should do. Just get out of Satan's service, and get into the Lord's. Leave your old friends, and unite yourself with God's people.

In a few days, if nothing happens, I expect to go to Liverpool. If, when I am in the train, my friend Mr. Shipton says, "Moody, you are going in the wrong train, - that train is going to Edinburgh" - I should say, "Mr. Shipton, you have made a great mistake; somebody told me the train was going to Liverpool. You are wrong, Mr. Shipton; I am sure you are wrong." Then Mr. Shipton would say, "Moody, I have lived here forty years, and I know all about the trains. He must have been very ignorant or very vicious who told you that train goes to Liverpool." Mr. Shipton at last convinces me, and I get out of that train and get into the one going to Liverpool.

Repentance is getting out of one train and getting into the other. You are in the wrong train; you are in the broad path that takes you down to the pit of hell. Get out of it to-night. Right-about-face! Who will turn his feet towards God? "Turn ye, for why will ye die?" In the Old Testament the word is "turn." In the New Testament the word is "repent." "Turn ye, for why will ye die, O house of Israel?" God does not want any man in this audience to perish, but He wants all to be saved. You can be saved now if you will.

There is another illustration I wish I had time to dwell upon and that is about looking. There is that serpent in the wilderness. "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man also be lifted up, that whosoever believeth on Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Look here! Just give me your attention for a few minutes. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ." How long does it take a man to believe? Or, if you will, how long does it take a man to look? Some people say they believe in educating people to be Christians. How long do you educate children to look? You hear the mother say, "Look," and the little child looks. It does not take a child three months to learn to look. Look and live! You need not go to college to learn how to look. There is not a child here but knows how to look. Christ says, "Look unto me; for I am [ABCOG: the way to] God, and there is none else."

There is the brazen serpent on the pole. God says to the children of Israel, who are dying of the bite of the fiery serpents - "Look, and live!"

Now, there is nothing in looking at a piece of brass which can cure the bite of a serpent. It is God who cures it, and the looking is the condition. It is obedience; and that is what God will have.

One moment the poor sufferer is dying; the next there comes a thrill of life through his veins, and he lives: he is well. My friends, look to Christ, and not to yourselves. That is what is the matter with a great many sinners; instead of looking to Christ, they are looking at the bite.

It is not looking to the wound; it is looking to the remedy. Christ is the remedy of sin. What you want is to look from the wound to the remedy - to Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith. Who will look tonight, and live? Turn your eye to Calvary; believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved.


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KEYWORDS: 230; dwightlmoody; moody; salvation; transcript
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
That's why salvation IS NOT a work of man, since man has nothing to do with God's grace. Salvation is of the Lord alone.

By the way, the reason it is not a work is because faith is not a work (Rom.4:4-5), so God can use it as means to obtain salvation.

821 posted on 01/27/2005 4:43:28 PM PST by fortheDeclaration
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To: HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg
Pleazzzzeee! How many times have we talked about this- round and round and round! Here's what the Westminster Confession has to say: I. The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls,[1] is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts,[2] and is ordinarily wrought by the ministry of the Word,[3] by which also, and by the administration of the sacraments, and prayer, it is increased and strengthened.[4] II. By this faith, a Christian believes to be true whatsoever is revealed in the Word, for the authority of God Himself speaking therein;[5] and acts differently upon that which each particular passage thereof contains; yielding obedience to the commands,[6] trembling at the threatenings,[7] and embracing the promises of God for this life, and that which is to come.[8] But the principal acts of saving faith are accepting, receiving, and resting upon Christ alone for justification, sanctification, and eternal life, by virtue of the covenant of grace.[9] III. This faith is different in degrees, weak or strong;[10] may often and many ways assailed, and weakened, but gets the victory:[11] growing up in many to the attainment of a full assurance, through Christ,[12] who is both the author and finisher of our faith.[13] Faith is a gift from God as pointed out in the confession.

What are you addressing?

We are not discussing the issue of wheather faith is a gift of God, but wheather or not it is by faith one is saved.

Eph.2:8-9 states that it is, that the grace of salvation is approbriated by faith and even if given as part of the grace, the faith procedes the (salvation) being an instrument to obtain it.

Grace is the plan of salvation (free) faith is how you accept the gift.

I see nowhere in the confession, regeneration preceding faith, but in point 8, accepting, receiving and resting upon Christ alone, which sounds like faith to me.

Hey, Dr.Eck, the Westminister confession wants you to use the sacraments to get stronger in the faith.

That is a Romanist concept.

822 posted on 01/27/2005 4:54:07 PM PST by fortheDeclaration
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To: fortheDeclaration; HarleyD; thePilgrim; RnMomof7; Gamecock; GLENNS; topcat54; Frumanchu; ...
You have to believe what the message says before you are saved.

No. The message has to be sent before you believe.

And if the message is sent, that Jesus Christ died for your sins and was resurrected into Glory for you who is now and always has been one of the sheep (Psalms 100:3), then you can do nothing else BUT believe.

As Scripture has told us time and again, dead men cannot do anything God-pleasing unless and until He rebirths us. Then we believe.

I expect that in a month you will be back proclaiming that faith is a sign that you have been regenerated and not an instrument to obtain that regeneration.

No contradiction there at all, ftd. But you can be sure I will not be proclaiming faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ as the refuseable, refundable, plastic ticket to heaven some see it as.

instrument to obtain

There's your error.

Faith is not our instrument to "obtain" anything. Faith is God's instrument which He employs to bestow grace and which identifies us as His sheep.

Not only are your prepositions screwed up, now you're mashing the verbs.

823 posted on 01/27/2005 4:56:40 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg (There are very few shades of gray.)
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To: fortheDeclaration; HarleyD

I've got to get out of here and you keep pulling me back in. 8~)

Sacraments enhance our beliefs and our lives, THEY DO NOT GIVE US GRACE.

Salvation is of the Lord alone, according to His ordained will from before the foundation of the world, based solely upon His good counsel and nothing within ourselves.

Or else it's salvation by the work of man, and not of God alone.

Rome/Geneva.

Monergism/synergism.


824 posted on 01/27/2005 5:01:12 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg (There are very few shades of gray.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
You have to believe what the message says before you are saved. No. The message has to be sent before you believe.

True. First you have to have the word God before you can hear it (Rom.10:14-15)

And if the message is sent, that Jesus Christ died for your sins and was resurrected into Glory for you who is now and always has been one of the sheep (Psalms 100:3), then you can do nothing else BUT believe.

Ok, that is correct but you must do something and that is believe.

As Scripture has told us time and again, dead men cannot do anything God-pleasing unless and until He rebirths us. Then we believe.

You see what I mean.

If faith is the instrument by which we are saved, then it must precede the rebirth since that is what happens when we are saved!

I expect that in a month you will be back proclaiming that faith is a sign that you have been regenerated and not an instrument to obtain that regeneration. No contradiction there at all, ftd. But you can be sure I will not be proclaiming faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ as the refuseable, refundable, plastic ticket to heaven some see it as There's your error. Faith is not our instrument to "obtain" anything. Faith is God's instrument which He employs to bestow grace and which identifies us as His sheep.

Faith is the man side of the salvation equation.

And if there is two sides to the equation,a Godward and a Manward side, then you do not have monergism.

You have man having to accept something.

Man is involved in the salvation event by accepting the free gift by means of faith.

It is all of Grace since faith is not a work.

Not only are your prepositions screwed up, now you're mashing the verbs.

No, as shown my prepositions are fine and so are my verbs, nouns, adverbs, and adjectives.

It is you who refuse to read the scriptures as they read and read something into them.

All the Calvinists I cited stated that man was involved in the salvation event, but it was not a work since faith is not a work, not because man is not doing something.

825 posted on 01/27/2005 5:08:12 PM PST by fortheDeclaration
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To: fortheDeclaration; Dr. Eckleburg
"What are you addressing? We are not discussing the issue of wheather faith is a gift of God, but wheather or not it is by faith one is saved."

I'm not quite sure I agree with this article (I need to study this further) but here is something that would answer your question in light of Dr. E's statements and your questions from a Reform view.

Regeneration Precedes Faith By R. C. Sproul

826 posted on 01/27/2005 5:22:03 PM PST by HarleyD (aka Codename: Heretic Harley-Ignorant Savage)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
I've got to get out of here and you keep pulling me back in. 8~) Sacraments enhance our beliefs and our lives, THEY DO NOT GIVE US GRACE.

They do!

How can they enhance your beliefs when it is God that gives you faith.

Salvation is of the Lord alone, according to His ordained will from before the foundation of the world, based solely upon His good counsel and nothing within ourselves. Or else it's salvation by the work of man, and not of God alone. Rome/Geneva. Monergism/synergism.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved-Bible.

P.S. faith is not a work. (Rom.4:4-5)

827 posted on 01/27/2005 5:24:49 PM PST by fortheDeclaration
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To: HarleyD
Nice little article.

To bad he doesn't address the verse in Eph.2:8.

In fact, he only mentions one verse in the entire article.

Was it him or someone else that had to say that the event had to be simultaneous to get out the problem that I had raised, how can one be regenerated (no longer in Adam) and not be in Christ.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that anyone is ever saved before they believe.

And Calvin, Gill and A.T.Robinson all agree that faith is how one approbriates the grace of salvation it is not the result of salvation.

828 posted on 01/27/2005 5:33:44 PM PST by fortheDeclaration
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What Must I Do To Be Saved?

Behave yourself.

829 posted on 01/27/2005 5:35:27 PM PST by jla
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To: thePilgrim
He is embroiled in a gigantic self-contradiction with his analogy.... I fully expect him or some other Arminian to do what they have been doing on this thread.

Yup, you were right. Notice how he takes a morpheme of uncontextualized scripture and tries to place it within a syllogism of his own making (roughly speaking) to come up with a circular and question begging answer. I remember a similar discussion with the same poster over the temptation of Christ and the Trinity and... well, let's just say the syllogisms fell apart rather quickly.

830 posted on 01/27/2005 6:39:56 PM PST by GLENNS
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To: jkl1122
One little flaw to deal with: baptism is not FOR remission of sins, but TO the remission of sins. That is literally the Greek, and it is translated that way in Young's, the LITV, and the Modern King James, among others. "Because of" would also be an equally good translation. So would "with regard to". I know the KJV-only crowd will object, but the Greek is the Greek.

The problem is, baptism is the duty of every Christian, but if they are not saved until they are baptised, then they are being baptised as an unsaved person, and only are saved after they come up out of the water. Most people's experience alone will tell them that this isn't the way it is. They were assured of their salvation BEFORE they were baptised. They were baptised in obedience to Christ's command, not in order to receive that which they already had the inward assurance that they possessed.

You're trying to make baptism a condition of salvation, when it is the sign of salvation already received. You think you know what those verses say, but you need to read them again, with a request to the Holy spirit to show you what they mean, which means you will have to let go of your preconceived idea, and let the Holy Spirit teach you.

831 posted on 01/27/2005 7:18:53 PM PST by nobdysfool (Faith in Christ is the evidence of God's choosing, not the cause of it.)
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To: Buggman
First, if you truly believe that, you cannot be a Calvinist, since Calvinism vehemously defends God's right to show all the partiality that He wants

For God to utilize His People in different ways is not partiality. To use me in a different manner than He uses you is showing no partiality to either one of us. He uses each of us to further His Plan. Each of us have different functions, different gifts, and different paths to follow, as He Wills. There is no pariaility in that.

An acusation of partiality in such things is actually the sin of jealousy on the part of the person accusing God of such, even hypothetically. And to make such an accusation against a Believer with whom you disagree doctrinally as a means of maligning his doctrine is being less than truthful. It is a false accusation, because as a Christian, you CAN'T believe such a thing of God and yet love Him. Therefore, you accuse another falsely of something that is within your own heart, and you are actually in a veiled way questioning his salvation.

Who are you that judges another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. But he will stand, for God is able to make him stand. (Rom 14:4)

832 posted on 01/27/2005 7:46:17 PM PST by nobdysfool (Faith in Christ is the evidence of God's choosing, not the cause of it.)
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To: nobdysfool; HarleyD
An acusation of partiality in such things is actually the sin of jealousy on the part of the person accusing God of such, even hypothetically.

*sigh* What is with certain people that they can't manage to disagree with someone on the least issue without accusations of sin and heresy? Thank you, Harley, for not stooping to that, though I don't see that we're really disagreeing on anything.

All I said is that God does not issue out gifts and callings equally to all. "To whom much is given, much is expected" (Lk. 12:48) is meaningless if all are given equally. For that matter, you'll notice that not all received equal amounts in the parable of the talents.

Insofar as Harley has defined partiality, I don't have a disagreement with him. However, I would point out that the context of all the passages you cited was that God does not show partiality in regards to His condemnation of sin and His requirement for redemption--that is, the Jew does not get a special dispensation in that respect to the Gentile. That does not mean that He gifts and blesses all men exactly alike.

833 posted on 01/27/2005 8:15:52 PM PST by Buggman (Your failure to be informed does not make me a kook.)
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To: nobdysfool
One little flaw to deal with: baptism is not FOR remission of sins, but TO the remission of sins.

"For" does not mean simply 'in order to bring about;' it also means 'as a result of' or 'because of'. Hence it is quite grammatically sound to say that to be "baptized for the remission of sins" does not mean "baptized in order to obtain the remission of sins," but "baptized because of the remission of sins."

834 posted on 01/27/2005 11:01:39 PM PST by The Grammarian ("Preaching is in the shadows. The world does not believe in it." --W.E. Sangster)
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To: fortheDeclaration; HarleyD; thePilgrim; RnMomof7
"And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." -- 2 Thessalonians 2:8-14.

Every page of Scripture declares salvation is of the Lord alone, ordained by Him "from the beginning."

Because we "receive the love of the truth," we are saved. Nowhere does it say because we choose to accept the truth we are saved.

835 posted on 01/27/2005 11:47:00 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg (There are very few shades of gray.)
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To: fortheDeclaration; HarleyD
"For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith." -- Romans 12:3

Every page of Scripture resonates with the same sound -- His will alone.

836 posted on 01/27/2005 11:58:10 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg (There are very few shades of gray.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
What it says is that salvation is by and through faith.

As for not receiving the love of the truth, that means responding to the truth as it is revealed to them (Jn.3, Rom.1)

Because, that when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful, but became vain in their foolish heart was darkened.

So the unbeliever knew God (the walking zombies have knowledge of God!) but they reject God and then a spirit of strong delusion is placed on them, God letting them run wild with their lusts.

Amazing what a little context and comparing scripture with scripture will do.

Finally, we are not discussing unconditional election, we are discussing what comes first Regeneration or faith.

Now, I believe one can still hold to monergism and unconditional election and have faith precede regeneration.

It is because the Calvinists have gotten cause and effect mixed up.

TULIP comes out of unconditional election, not the other way around.

If faith is irresistable, why can't a man believe first and then be regenerate?

In our system, the spiritualy dead need prevenient grace so they can make a decision, but in Calvinism, no decision is being made, only acceptance of the Gospel message, which, being the elect they cannot reject.

Now, the Calvinist will say, that the spiritually dead needs first to be 'born again'in order to understand the Gospel.

But why do the elect have to understand before he believes ( As some Church Father stated,I believe and thus I understand)

The elect are given faith when they hear the Gospel, and then become regenerate.

Understanding of the Gospel would come later (1Cor.2:14)

What arguments from purely a Calvinist point of few would negate that view?

The only reason that regeneration is given first is to make the person understand the Gospel,(Jn.3:3) but understanding the Gospel is really irrevelant for the elect since he is going to believe it anyway based on irresistable grace.

Even in TULIP,(in my opinion) one can at least have the correct order of salvation and still be monergistic.

837 posted on 01/28/2005 3:12:21 AM PST by fortheDeclaration
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
No one questions that it God's will alone, but the question is what is God's will?

2Pe. 'that none should perish'

As for Romans 12, please look at the context.

Is Paul speaking to the unsaved or saved?

He is speaking to the saved and exhorting them to the Christian walk (why the exhortation if God is doing all the work anyway)

All Christians do receive a measure of faith at the point of salvation and it is up to them to make it grow (2Pe.2:2,Heb.5).

So in your Christian walk, God makes all your choices for you, including the ones to sin?

838 posted on 01/28/2005 3:32:43 AM PST by fortheDeclaration
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To: jla
What Must I Do To Be Saved? Behave yourself.

Well, that will get you to hell. (Isa.64:6, Matt.5:20)

839 posted on 01/28/2005 3:47:05 AM PST by fortheDeclaration
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To: Buggman; Dr. Eckleburg; xzins; Corin Stormhands
OP, you know I love you, but c'mon! We've already demonstrated repeatedly that faith is not a work....

Do you Affirm, or Deny, that True Faith involves a Volitional Mental Action, initiated by a Decision of Will?

Any "Action" of any sort whatsoever is, by nature, a "Work" (an initiation of activity towards a specified purpose).

840 posted on 01/28/2005 4:10:02 AM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian (We are Unworthy Servants; We have only done Our Duty)
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