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To: fortheDeclaration; HarleyD; thePilgrim; RnMomof7
"And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." -- 2 Thessalonians 2:8-14.

Every page of Scripture declares salvation is of the Lord alone, ordained by Him "from the beginning."

Because we "receive the love of the truth," we are saved. Nowhere does it say because we choose to accept the truth we are saved.

835 posted on 01/27/2005 11:47:00 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg (There are very few shades of gray.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
What it says is that salvation is by and through faith.

As for not receiving the love of the truth, that means responding to the truth as it is revealed to them (Jn.3, Rom.1)

Because, that when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful, but became vain in their foolish heart was darkened.

So the unbeliever knew God (the walking zombies have knowledge of God!) but they reject God and then a spirit of strong delusion is placed on them, God letting them run wild with their lusts.

Amazing what a little context and comparing scripture with scripture will do.

Finally, we are not discussing unconditional election, we are discussing what comes first Regeneration or faith.

Now, I believe one can still hold to monergism and unconditional election and have faith precede regeneration.

It is because the Calvinists have gotten cause and effect mixed up.

TULIP comes out of unconditional election, not the other way around.

If faith is irresistable, why can't a man believe first and then be regenerate?

In our system, the spiritualy dead need prevenient grace so they can make a decision, but in Calvinism, no decision is being made, only acceptance of the Gospel message, which, being the elect they cannot reject.

Now, the Calvinist will say, that the spiritually dead needs first to be 'born again'in order to understand the Gospel.

But why do the elect have to understand before he believes ( As some Church Father stated,I believe and thus I understand)

The elect are given faith when they hear the Gospel, and then become regenerate.

Understanding of the Gospel would come later (1Cor.2:14)

What arguments from purely a Calvinist point of few would negate that view?

The only reason that regeneration is given first is to make the person understand the Gospel,(Jn.3:3) but understanding the Gospel is really irrevelant for the elect since he is going to believe it anyway based on irresistable grace.

Even in TULIP,(in my opinion) one can at least have the correct order of salvation and still be monergistic.

837 posted on 01/28/2005 3:12:21 AM PST by fortheDeclaration
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