I am listening to ANCIENT ROMANS by Thomas R Martin. Struck at how closely the fall of western civilization follows the fall of Rome.

Chickensoup | Chickensoup

[Chickensoup]

I am listening to ANCIENT ROMANS by Thomas R Martin. Struck at how closely the fall of western civilization follows the fall of Rome. It is available through Blackstone audio using their Downpour app.

How MIGRANTS took over civilization and the outcome is the end of this fascinating book about the rise of Mediterranean civilizations. Not to be missed.

https://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Rome-Justinian-Thomas-Martin/dp/0300198310

[MCF]

“When the Western Roman empire fell, its civilization continued and continues today.”
I disagree. After the collapse of Rome it's civil society disintegrated. All of Europe that wasn't part of the Byzantine Empire descended into the hundreds years long Dark ages. All of the rest was eventually taken over by the Muslims.Fragments of Rome was past on via the Catholic Church primarily the Latin language. Rome's traditions and social structures were replaced by Europeans tribalism which evolved into monarchies which themselves have gone by the wayside as a governing force.

[Savage Beast]

Tiberius, Caligula, Nero, Mao, Stalin, and Hitler were all monsters.

Tiberius entertained himself by molesting children sexually and then tossing them off the cliffs of the Isle of Capri. At the cliff bottom, men in boats killed any who survived. That was only one of his hobbies. Of course Tiberius was a monster. As he raised Caligula, he famously said, "I am nursing a viper for the Roman People."

Caligula was probably psychotic.

Their parallels to Stalin, Mao, and Hitler are striking.

There have been other monsters. There are today. There will be in the future. Decent people must control them and prevent them from acquiring great power.

[NetAddicted]

This Twitchy article made me think of your post:
https://twitchy.com/artistangie/2023/09/15/how-often-do-you-think-about-the-roman-empire-trend-is-taking-over-social-media-n2387320

[icclearly]

The collapse of the western Roman empire did not “set the modern world back to the Stone age” — that’s massive hyperbole.

Mr. Cronos, like so many of your posts, you seem to live in an alternate universe.

Over 700 or so years from the founding of Rome, from Etruscan roots, their civilization advanced with many conveniences that were modern to them. Conveniences like roads (covered in hard surfaces), aqueducts to bring in water, sewers to take waste out, tiled roofs, and a highly developed mass production economy for simple items like tiled roofs and other conveniences.

All of that disappeared with the fall of the Western Roman Empire.

Show me the aqueducts, tiled roofs, sewer systems, and other life conveniences in the barbarian hinterlands. The new hinterlands were all led by local war-lords -- that you call NON-CENTRALIZED. And their so-called citizens (tribe members) lives were barbaric as they slowly evolved into the Renaissance.

So much for the former structured bureaucratic, organized structure of what Rome had built over many years for its citizens.

If you read history, you might want to go back to the books -- if it will help you (which I doubt).

[eeriegeno]

The USA, the American People, and American Civilization reached their zenith on June 6, 1944, D-Day, the day of the Normandy Invasion.

I disagree with you on the date! I think that our zenith was reached and died with the gunshots on Nov 22, 1963. It only took several months for Johnson to begin the downward spiral with his War on Poverty, Great Society, and Civil Rights act. He said it best back then, "With the passage of this bill we will have the n****** voting democrat for 200 years!" That was the beginning!!!!

[HereInTheHeartland]

These are the kind of posts that make FR a great source of information.

[Savage Beast]

I don't agree.

I think Eisenhower's Administration was a plateau after the zenith of the World War II victory.

I think the election of Kennedy, probably due to election fraud, was the beginning of the downturn as the USA began its descent into decadence. The Kennedy Administration and the adulation of the Kennedys were part of the decay.

[Cronos]

The thing is - the entire "Dark Ages" is a Gibbons and other "Enlightenment" authors myth. Let me explain why:

• Literature -- we have elaborately decorated bibles from this period as well as the first authors in local tongues - Dante, Chaucer etc.
  
  In sixth century Gaul, Gregory of Tours left an extensive history of the Franks and lives of the saints which are filled with details of daily life. The poet Fortunatus left numerous poems which also often give glimpses of daily life. The Greek physician Anthimus left a dietetic which includes an inventory of foods in Northeastern Gaul and several recipes.
  
  
• Architecture - Gothic architecture is gorgeous
  
  
  
  They improved on the Roman arches
  
  
• City life - though cities shrank from mega cities, they became more numerous - In France and Italy, many cities survived all the way up to the present day, including Rome itself, Milan and Ravenna, Paris, Amiens, Lyons, Marseilles, Metz, Reims, etc. More major modern French cities than not trace their origin to Roman times.
  
  The increased localization led to more cities with "Marburg laws" etc.
  
  
• Education - Monasteries became centers of learning and scholarship during the Dark Ages. Monks preserved and copied ancient texts, contributing to the preservation of classical knowledge. Monasteries also served as centers for education, producing manuscripts, illuminations, and theological works.
  
  
• Scientific innovations - Agricultural advancements such as the use of heavy plows, crop rotation, and improved farming techniques contributed to increased food production and population growth. Then the use of windmills and water mills improved incredibly
  
  
• about the governing structures going to tribalism and thence monarchy and onwards - aren't we idealizing Roman laws that they weren't monarchial? Until the Justinian laws, they weren't necessarily even codified

[cgbg]

Eisenhower’s Farewell Address was actually a eulogy for a great civilization that had just been afflicted with a fatal illness.

It predicted everything we see today.

“Today, the solitary inventor, tinkering in his shop, has been over shadowed by task forces of scientists in laboratories and testing fields.

In the same fashion, the free university, historically the fountainhead of free ideas and scientific discovery, has experienced a revolution in the conduct of research. Partly because of the huge costs involved, a government contract becomes virtually a substitute for intellectual curiosity. For every old blackboard there are now hundreds of new electronic computers.

The prospect of domination of the nation’s scholars by Federal employment, project allocations, and the power of money is ever present and is gravely to be regarded.

Yet, in holding scientific research and discovery in respect, as we should, we must also be alert to the equal and opposite danger that public policy could itself become the captive of a scientific-technological elite.”

[Cronos]

Tiberius:

---

Suetonius has stories about Tiberius attempting to rape a woman and raping two boys, but Champlin (2015) and other historians have strong doubts about these and consider them fictinoal in nature.

Suetonius is hardly scrupulous in his stories - a lot of his accounts are gossip.

Tacitus is not really reliable when it comes to the Julio-Claudian dynasty as he over-glorifies the late republic and then paints the Julio-Claudians as almost cartoonically evil.

https://www.amazon.com/Tiberius-Caesar-G-P-Baker/dp/0815411138

This gives a bit more fair-minded biography.

Caligula and Nero

---

With Caligula and Nero, it’s easier to accept the characterization of homicidal enfant terrible, because they were young spoiled and had not the facility, inclination , or preparation for the job.

— comparing them to the populists Mao, Stalin and Hitler - well, that’s incorrect.

Caligula and Nero failed at playing to the crow, while M, S and H most certainly succeeded.

Caligula and Nero were monsters like the ancient kings from various countries from China to Ireland, who seemed to get off on the shrieks of the tortured.

But in terms of the way Mao, Stalin and Hitler were able to direct swarms of people to commit murders on a vast scale was something else.

[Cronos]

“Conveniences like roads (covered in hard surfaces), aqueducts to bring in water, sewers to take waste out, tiled roofs, and a highly developed mass production economy for simple items like tiled roofs and other conveniences.”

And those are perfect examples of why I called it massive hyperbole.

Roman systems were kept and maintained for centuries - with little innovation. There was little to no pressure to change things and innovation was stifled.

If the Roman empire had, say, stuck together after 476 and say survived until today the world would be stuck with ancient innovations and no new ones.

how can I say that? By comparing the state of Western Europe to
1. The (eastern) Roman empire — by the 12th century, Western Europe had caught up
2. The Muslim world - again, Western Europe had caught up by the 12th century and then steamrolled ahead.
3. India stagnating from its Gupta golden age to the conquest by the turkic Muslims and then deterioration until 1947 (the Mughals were strong, but they just exploited the land and had few development)
4. China under the post-Tang empires - the Ming personified this — they first had a burst of creativity then it became “the old ways are best” and they literally burned their boats.

People did NOT return to the stone age - they may have returned to the early Republican era, but that was also temporarily until the force of innovation and multiple competing states pushed the Western world to innovate, innovate, innovate

[central_va]

If the Roman empire had, say, stuck together after 476 and say survived until today the world would be stuck with ancient innovations and no new ones.

Ridiculous statment. Having said that I woul rathet live as free person in a low tech Roman society than in a high tech security state.

[icclearly]

People did NOT return to the stone age - they may have returned to the early Republican era, but that was also temporarily until the force of innovation and multiple competing states pushed the Western world to innovate, innovate, innovate

Yes.Correct.

You made my point

It only took them a thousand years to innovate.

Why do you think they call those years the "dark age?"

Smart. Real smart.

[Savage Beast]

Your observation is keen and astute. You’re absolutely right.

[Savage Beast]

Thank you for your wise message and comments.

Perhaps you know more about Tiberius than I do.

Of course it's true that Nero and Caligula had no sway over large numbers of people, as did Hitler, Stalin, and Mao, but they were all five monsters.

Caligula--or "bootsie"--came to power with great popular support but soon lost it as his monstrous nature expressed itself in his behavior.

Of course, such monsters as these should not be allowed to attain great power. The problem is how to prevent it--and how to recognize them before they can. I suppose this is the great dilemma of the Information Age, when one would expect a monstrous nature to reveal itself but is doomed to disappointment by the power of propaganda.

The other question is how much power corrupts and whether anyone is absolutely incorruptible.

Certainly the enormous power concentrated in a place like Washington would be inevitably a magnet for the ambitious and the corrupt and also a corrupting influence on anyone who isn't saintly.

Ambitious people--especially ambitious scoundrels--have always dreamed of seizing the enormous wealth and power of the USA for themselves, some no doubt flattering and deceiving themselves that they would use it only for good purposes. The great danger is that today, with America weakened by decadence, they see a real opportunity for doing it.

The history of Rome is a huge warning. There are many others.

Can the American People save themselves and their precious heritage? Certainly nobody else can.

What do you think?

[Cronos]

Can? Yes

But will it happen? I doubt

The reason is that there is too much entrenched centralized power.

What is needed is a confederation and smaller states. I think something like the Swiss confederation pre 1846 would be good

[MCF]

Great summation of the, I’ll refer to now, Middle Ages. However, you reinforced my point that when Western Rome collapsed very little of it carried over. Europe developed its own Civilization. It’s own totally different way of life. Rome is but one of many Civilizations around the world that collapsed. The U.S. will be one of them.