On this date in 1864 President Lincoln receives a Christmas gift.

[Bull Snipe]

"I beg to present you as a Christmas gift the City of Savannah, with one hundred and fifty heavy guns and plenty of ammunition and about twenty-five thousand bales of cotton." General William T. Sherman's "March to the Sea" was over. During the campaign General Sherman had made good on his promise d “to make Georgia howl”. Atlanta was a smoldering ruin, Savannah was in Union hands, closing one of the last large ports to Confederate blockade runners. Sherman’s Army wrecked 300 miles of railroad and numerous bridges and miles of telegraph lines. It seized 5,000 horses, 4,000 mules, and 13,000 head of cattle. It confiscated 9.5 million pounds of corn and 10.5 million pounds of fodder, and destroyed uncounted cotton gins and mills. In all, about 100 million dollars of damage was done to Georgia and the Confederate war effort.

[DiogenesLamp]

Where does Porter he discuss receiving secret orders from Lincoln.

They weren't secret to Porter, so as far as I know, he simply refers to them as "my orders." Since nobody else knows exactly what they said, they are "secret" to everyone else.

[BroJoeK]

Kalamata to OIFVeteran: "For someone who claims to support and defend the Constitution, and took an oath to do so, you appear to have nothing but disdain for original intent."

Sadly, Mr. Olive has no knowledge of, or respect for, Founders' Original Intent.
What he does well know and worship is a pack of anti-American Democrat lies he learned as a child and now can't comprehend anything different.

Kalamata: "Pinckney is crystal clear that the federal government has NO power whatsoever, except for those powers that are expressly mentioned in the Constitution."

That is a meaningless red herring/straw man argument because the Constitution, the 1792 Militia Act and the 1807 Insurrection Act provide plenty of Federal authority in response to rebellion, insurrection, "domestic violence", invasion and/or treason.

Kalamata "So, please show us an expressed power given to the federal government to "preserve the union," or to "prevent secession," then please drop the notion that Pinckney did not believe in state sovereignty, and the notion that Lincoln acted lawfully."

The facts are:

1. The Federal government under President Buchanan took no actions of any kind to prevent secession, Confederacy and military aggression against the United States.
   Nor did the Lincoln administration, until Confederates fired on Union troops and forced Fort Sumter's surrender.
   Lincoln declared that "rebellion" and Civil War was on.

2. All Founders believed in limited "state sovereignty", but none believed that unilateral secession at pleasure was lawful.

3. Lincoln's actions were totally lawful both before & after Fort Sumter.

Kalamata "Story was a Hamiltonian mercantilist, as was his mentor, John Marshall, as well as Henry Clay, Abraham Lincoln's hero.
The truth was not in them."

There is no truth in Mr. Olive -- he was taught as a child the Democrat lies, taught how to lie, and now can do nothing else.
The real truth here is that our Federalist Founders included men like Washington, Hamilton, Madison, Adams & Marshall.
Their ideas define our Founders' Original Intent, while Kalamata's define nothing but his own anti-Federalist, anti-Constitution, anti-American feeeeeeeeeelings.

[DoodleDawg]

And what was the probability that they would be resisted?

Since Davis wanted a war I'd say 100%.

[DoodleDawg]

When this thread started Sherman had just taken Savannah. By now Sherman had defeated McLaws at River Bridge and was about 70 miles northwest of Charleston. Will you all still be fighting this out come Bentonville in March?

[Bull Snipe]

Yes it was about 100%. Davis was not going to allow Sumter to be resupplied under any circumstance by anyone. Lincoln could have sent a troop of Brownie Scouts in open canoes with nothing but hardtack and coffee. Davis would have ordered Beauregard to reduce Sumter by force before the girls could get to it.

[Bull Snipe]

He drafted three orders for Lincoln’s signature. None of which gives him direction to unilaterally start shooting.

[BroJoeK]

OIFVeteran quoting RE Lee: "Secession is nothing but revolution.
The framers of our Constitution never exhausted so much labor, wisdom, and forbearance in its formation, and surrounded it with so many guards and securities, if it was intended to be broken by every member of the Confederacy at will.
It was intended for “perpetual union,” so expressed in the preamble, and for the establishment of a government, not a compact, which can only be dissolved by revolution or the consent of all the people in convention assembled.
It is idle to talk of secession."
-- Robert E. Lee to his son, January 23 1861"

Sorry, but I'm almost certain this quote is misattributed -- it sounds much more like that Devil Lincoln, not the blessed St. Robert.

I mean, think of it -- if Devil Lincoln had said such a thing, wouldn't it be proof-positive of his Hitlerian, Nazi, Marxist, Communist, central planning tyranny?
And wasn't blessed St. Robert a firm believer in the sovereign right of states to be free of such tyranny?

So obviously the quote must be fake -- maybe, yes maybe, Lincoln did actually write it, but put it in a letter with blessed St. Robert's return address, just to fool young Lee into thinking his dad had gone insane... yeh, that's the ticket.

;-)

[BroJoeK]

jeffersondem to DoodleDawg: "The Confederate president fought to protect and defend his nation’s constitution and, arguably, President Lincoln did the same thing.
Both constitutions enshrined slavery."

Bull Snipe to jeffersondem: "But in one of those Constitutions it was legal for a state to end slavery.
By 1860 15 states had done so.
In the other Constitution, states did not have that right."

I count 19 free-states in 1860, including Kansas.
By war's end in 1865 there were 23 free-states, 13 slave-states.
During the war three Union slave-states abolished slavery on their own, and one new free-state was admitted (Nevada).
Eight of 11 Confederate states ratified the US 13th Amendment in 1865.
Three of those -- Virginia, Louisiana and Tennessee -- ratified the US 13th Amendment before RE Lee's surrender at Appomattox Court House, April 9, 1865.

[DiogenesLamp]

I should note here again, having examined Kalamata's opinions at length, my "theory of the crime" on them is that as a young boy Kalamata was abused, politically, by Democrats, just as today millions of children are being abused by Democrats -- taught to believe lies about their Republican president, that he is pretty much every bad name you can think of.

See? It's this unnecessary commentary that makes your long winded posts so tedious to read. This is why I often skip your writing. I don't want to wade through a bunch of ad hominems that don't impress anyone to get to whatever point you are trying to make.

[DiogenesLamp]

Since Davis wanted a war I'd say 100%.

At least you are honest about the 100%, even if you did put in your little bit of propaganda.

Funny how everyone wants to blame Davis for something Lincoln started with his warships.

Without the warships showing up, Anderson was going to evacuate the fort at noon on April 15th.

Anderson himself said the warships were going to cause a war, and he was absolutely right.

[DiogenesLamp]

Yes it was about 100%.

Thank you. So what is the point of going into "if they were resisted"? Everyone on both sides knew that they could just skip over that part and go straight to using force.

They could make a formality of asking "are you going to resist"? and the answer would have been "Yes." And then they would have went straight to plan "B", which was to open fire.

So yes, Lincoln sent those ships with orders that virtually guaranteed they would open fire on the Confederates.

[DiogenesLamp]

He drafted three orders for Lincoln’s signature. None of which gives him direction to unilaterally start shooting.

Since we've never seen a copy of these orders, how do you know they didn't give him authority to start shooting?

Especially given the fact that when he got to Pensacola, he was indeed intending to start shooting, and only stopped with much disgruntlement, because Meigs had blocked his path with another ship.

As time went on, he did open fire on a confederate ship, and then lob a shell onto the confederate docks.

Why would he open fire on them unless he was trying to start a war?

[DiogenesLamp]

Another example of where you waste everyone’s time with personal commentary instead of actually addressing any point of significance.

[DoodleDawg]

At least you are honest about the 100%, even if you did put in your little bit of propaganda.

Truth hurts.

Funny how everyone wants to blame Davis for something Lincoln started with his warships.

Funny how you want to blame Lincoln for something Davis started with his bombardment of Sumter.

Without the warships showing up, Anderson was going to evacuate the fort at noon on April 15th.

You mean surrender, don't you?

Anderson himself said the warships were going to cause a war, and he was absolutely right.

Because Davis wanted one.

[DiogenesLamp]

Eight of 11 Confederate states ratified the US 13th Amendment in 1865.

Washington DC sockpuppets "ratified" an Amendment Washington DC ordered them to ratify.

That's not how "ratification" actually works. You can't hold guns to people's head and threaten them into doing something, and then claim they did it voluntarily.

This was done in conflict with the constitutional process. This was an example of dictatorship.

[DiogenesLamp]

Truth hurts.

I don't feel hurt. Maybe that wasn't the truth?

Funny how you want to blame Lincoln for something Davis started with his bombardment of Sumter.

Bombardment of Sumter would not have happened without warships showing up with orders to impose Lincoln's will. No warships, no war.

You mean surrender, don't you?

Anderson was pretty adamant that he wasn't going to "surrender". He used the word "evacuate".

Because Davis wanted one.

If this is true, why did he send a telegraph telling Beauregard not to attack the fort if Anderson would just name a time at which he would evacuate?

Everything was settling down before Lincoln stuck his big warships into the mix.

[Bull Snipe]

“Since we’ve never seen a copy of these orders, how do you know they didn’t give him authority to start shooting?”

EXECUTIVE MANSION, WASHINGTON, April 1, 1865.
Lieut. D.D. PORTER will take command of the steamer Powhatan, or any other United States steamer ready for sea, which he may deem best fit for the service to which he has been assigned by confidential instructions of this date.
All officers are commanded to afford him all such facilities as he may deem necessary for getting to sea as soon as possible.
He will select the officers to accompany him.
(Signed) ABRAHAM LINCOLN.
Recommended,
(Signed) WILLIAM H. SEWARD.

EXECUTIVE MANSION, April 1, 1861.
Lieut. D.D. Porter, United States Navy:
SIR: You will proceed to New-York, and with the least possible delay, assume command of any naval steamer available, proceed to Pensacola harbor, and at any cost or risk prevent any expedition from the main land reaching Fort Pickens or Santa Rosa Island.
You will exhibit this order to any naval officer at Pensacola, if you deem it necessary, after you have established yourself within the harbor, and will request cooperation by the entrance of at least one other steamer.
This order, your object and your destination will be communicated to no person whatever until you reach the harbor of Pensacola.
(Signed,) ABRAHAM LINCOLN.
Recommended.
(Signed,) WILLIAM H. SEWARD.
[Enclosure.]
WASHINGTON, EXECUTIVE MANSION, April 1, 1861.

PRESIDENT LINCOLN TO CAPT. MERCER OF THE POWHATTAN
WASHINGTON CITY, April 2, 1861.
[Confidential.]
SIR: Circumstances render it necessary to place in command of your ship (and for a special purpose) an officer who is fully informed and instructed in relation to the wishes of the government, and you will therefore consider yourself detached. But in taking this step, the government does not in the least reflect upon your efficiency and patriotism; on the contrary, have the fullest confidence in your ability to perform any duty required of you.
Hoping soon to be able to give you a better command than the one you now enjoy, and trusting that you will have full confidence in the disposition of the govennnent toward you, I remain, &c.,
(Signed,) ABRAHAM LINCOLN.
Capt. S. MERCER, United States Navy.
A true copy. (Signed,) M.C. MEIGS, Captain of Engineers and Chief Engineer of Col. BROWN’s Expedition

The forth order Porter drafted for Lincoln’s signature concerned relieving Captain Silas Stringham of his duties at the New York Naval Shipyard and had nothing to do with the Pensacola operation.

[Bull Snipe]

Bombardment of Sumter would not have happened without warships showing up with orders to impose Lincoln’s will.

Davis was not going to allow Sumter to be resupplied under any circumstance. Sumter was going to be without food in a few days and Anderson would have to surrender the post. It would not have made any difference how provisions were going to be provided to Sumter, Davis would not let that happen. If it meant reducing Sumter by force first, he was not going to allow provisioning by any means by anyone.

[Bull Snipe]

“Everyone on both sides knew that they could just skip over that part and go straight to using force.”

Which is what Davis did. None of the resupply forces fired a shot.

[DiogenesLamp]

Which is what Davis did. None of the resupply forces fired a shot.

The aiming of the weapon is sufficient to provoke a response from any normal person.

Lincoln aimed the weapon.