Posted on 05/29/2019 12:37:41 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o
May 27, 2019 (LifeSiteNews) — Speaking with one of the best-known conservative Jews, Dennis Prager, at the PragerU summit last week, world-famous psychologist Jordan Peterson spoke of God and his views of faith. After speaking about his dislike for the question ‘Do you believe in God?’ Peterson said, “I think that Catholicism — that's as sane as people can get.”
Peterson has often been asked about his faith, if he believes in God, and he said the question has always troubled him. He promised a podcast on the matter since he has given his dislike for the question much thought.
He explained, “Who would have the audacity to claim that they believed in God if they examined the way they lived? Who would dare say that?”
“To believe, in a Christian sense,” he added, “means that you live it out fully and that's an that's an unbearable task in some sense.”
Then in one long drawn-out, rapid-fire thought, the type that has enthralled his millions of fans, he laid out extemporaneously the vision of a believer in God:
“To be able to accept the structure of existence, the suffering that goes along with it and the disappointment and the betrayal, and to nonetheless act properly; to aim at the good with all your heart; to dispense with the malevolence and your desire for destruction and revenge and all of that; and to face things courageously and to tell the truth to speak the truth and to act it out, that's what it means to believe -- that's what it means -- it doesn't mean to state it, it means to act it out. And, unless you act it out you should be very careful about claiming it. And so, I've never been comfortable saying anything other than I try to act as if God exists because God only knows what you'd be if you truly believed.”
See the full exchange of Peterson and Prager here.
1st Corinthians 2:14
Revelation 21 :: NIV.
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.
But that river has to flow SOMEWHERE.
You mean,
By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. (Hebrews 10:10-13)
For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. (Romans 6:10)
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. (Hebrews 9:28)
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: (1 Peter 3:18)
You mean you never see the NT church ordaining priests whose unique function is to confect the "Eucharist" and offer it as a sacrifice for sins, and fed to the flock as spiritual food? But instead the Lord's supper is to remember and thus show/declare the Lord's death by which He purchased the church, (Act 20:38) by taking part in a communal meal, sharing food with other members who were bought by that sinless shed blood, thus showing unity with Christ and each other, as being "one bread"? Like as pagans had fellowship with the object of their dedicatory feasts by sharing food with each other in them? 1Cor. 10,11
Next. 😁😆🤣
I believe in being healthy... that doesn't mean every other 'belief' is pushed out of the way for that one... I can believe in God without believing that God should take up every second of my life. Peterson's using an absolute to give him a pass on believing.
Yes, dear boatbums, that's agood "ah ha"! You've got good insight here, because Jesus' sacrifice IS effective forever. It does not have an expiration date! The blood shed is the blood of the "New and Everlasting Covenant". And death cannot hold or re-take Him. Once he was dead and risen, death had no dominion over Him. He cannot die again.
I wonder, though,whether you might think that "repeated" and "made present" are synonyms? Because they are not. It may take some explaining to distinguish what we mean by "made present" --- and this is different from "repeated."
The result of Jesus' sacrificial death on the cross was -- just as you said --- the atonement of sin through His perfect blood offering. That is perfect and that is not subject to being multiplied or changed.
Not only was it sufficient to save everyone in the NT era and going forward, until the end of time ---- it was also sufficient to save everyone "going backward," so to speak, to save all those at all times and ages who are saved. Did not the death of Jesus make atonement for Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob,and their sons? (And Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel, Leah, Leah, daughters and cousins by the dozens and the rest?) We believe Jesus saved those stumble-bums --- whom He had created in perfection to be the crown of Creation --- our primordial sinful ancestors, Adam and Eve.
So His atonement is all-sufficient, even to those who could not have been present (e.g. the eight human beings saved on the Ark.)
Agreed?
One wonderful aspect, is that it is the one, pure and perfect, all-sufficient act of a Person whose acts are eternal. And when I say eternal, I mean stretching beyond the limits of space and time.
God is acting here, for Jesus is God: and His acts, even after the Incarnation, are not limited by anything. This offering belongs to history, because it happened at a particular time (ca 30 AD) and a particular place (a hill called Golgotha, outside of Jerusalem) --- and yet, because it is God who is acting, it becomes history’s origin and center and goal.
"The lamb Who was slain before the foundation of the world," as Scripture has it.
So that doesn't change or get repeated. But it is we who can change. Jesus and His saving work are always present to *us*, but we can be changed to be present to *Him*.
In the Liturgy we are swept up, as it were, into eternity: it is here that heaven meets earth; and when we sing, we sing with the angels, in the angels' own words:
So, what a wonderful privilege it is, when His Eucharistic Body and Blood are given to us, that, *recognizing* the Body as St. Paul puts it, we may simply and wholeheartedly reply,
Well, yeah they are.
"And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner," (CCC 1367).
And as has been repeatedly noted....without the shedding of blood there is no sacrifice.
And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. Hebrews 9:22 NASB
You make no reference to the key reality here, the eternal dimension of the sacrifice, ealgeone.
Do you think “the Lamb who was slain before the foundation of the world” is making the same sacrifice as that of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God?
Why or why not?
IF you are as smart as you think you are, look up the particulars of what Kosher means and how it is accomplished and why. ... I suspect your Catholic mind is now echoing the 'yes but' ... your ignorance is profound, and profoundly dangerous for your immortal soul.
The Lamb who was slain is a reference to Jesus Christ...He wasn't slain til 33 AD...Was it known he would be slain??? It was foreordained from the foundation of the World...
God's people in the OT received Manna to eat, to stay alive...For their spiritual redemption their priests offered the blood of animal sacrifices...The blood of Jesus was not an option at that time...But if it had been, why were the priests not aware of it and call down Jesus to handle the atonement which was present??? Why was it available for Catholics after 33 AD but for no one before that???
When Jacob wrestled Jesus, he made no mention of wrestling with someone who is going thru a crucifixion...Why did no one who actually had contact with Jesus back then recognia a lamb who had been slain???
I've already addressed that. Once an item is paid for, it's paid for. I don't have to keep showing it to the cashier over and over and over again.
Do you think “the Lamb who was slain before the foundation of the world” is making the same sacrifice as that of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God?
The Lamb is Christ.
He is not making a sacrifice over and over again.
If we can impress upon you one thing is this:
The sacrifice was made at Calvary.
Hebrews calls it a one time sacrifice.
Jesus's last words were tetelestai...it has been finished.
The implication in the Greek means something that happened in the past has impact going forward. This is for tetelestai.
In the passages we've been quoting from Hebrews, most of the verbs are in the aorist tense. It usually describes an undefined action that normally occurs in the past.
So when Roman Catholics say it's an ongoing sacrifice, this is why I disagree.
The actual sacrifice was done around 33 AD. The impact of the sacrifice is still being felt in 2019 and will continue to be for eternity.
IT. IS. NOT. REPEATED. NOR. REPRESENTED.
This is why the Scriptures say, "do this in REMEMBRANCE of Me".
I'll try to give a more detailed exegesis later this weekend.
It's an inapt analogy. There is no element which is comparable.
First: the Catholic Church rejects the idea that the sacrificial death of Jesus happens over and over and over again. That idea is excluded from the get-go.
Second, neither does the "bill" have to be paid over and over again, and we don't have to keep showing the "receipt" to the "cashier" over and over again. (Repellent commercial-transaction image., BTW. Almost incomprehensibly far from a true Catholic understanding.)
Even if this "show me the receipt" playacting were a true description of *something,* it would not be a description of the Divine Liturgy. It would apply more nearly to a Protestant "Lord's Supper," where it's acknowleged that nothing is actually happening, but we'll still do a re-enactor thing regardless, though this accomplishes not one thing.
I do not claim to be an expert in your religion, as you claim to be an expert in mine. But at least at the Lord's Supper services I have attended in Protestant churches, there is no element there of Earth and Heaven rejoicing together because of the mighty thing God has done, with men and angels singing of the most profound act of Love that ever happened in the history of the Universe.
I am not putting down Protestants and their Lord's Suppers for that reason. They showed themselves reverent and respectful. And I remain respectful as well. But a Divine Liturgy, where Angels and archangels and the entire angelic host rejoice with us and heaven touches earth --- is not what the Protestant Lord's Supper is--- nor is it claimed to be.
So that's why the analogy fails.
" The Lamb is Christ.
He is not making a sacrifice over and over again.
If we can impress upon you one thing is this:
The sacrifice was made at Calvary.
Hebrews calls it a one time sacrifice.
Jesus's last words were tetelestai...it has been finished.
OK! You convinced me! I now agree with all that!
Seriously, and --- as we FReepers say, seriesly ---I agreed with all that before you even put it on my screen. It's good Catholic doctrine. You can find it in the Bible and in the Catechism which faithfully reflects the same.
Christ's death is over. It is finished. It was a one-time thing. It happened in ca. 30-33 AD on a hill called in Hebrew "Skull Place," directly outside the Old City Wall in Jerusalem. He's not dying anymore, folks. He has overcome sin and death, and death has no more dominion over Him --- as I will never tire of saying.
What you haven't dealt with, though, is that this has a time/space bound aspect --- it happened at one identifiable, historic time and one identifiable, geographic place, and no, Jesus will not bleed out on a cross and have his heart gashed open by a lance, ever again. Amen.
What you're not dealing with, though, is the aspect that transcends earthly time and place. We have this is the Biblical testimony, that:
What most protestant brethren fail to understand is the nature of the Mass, it is a prayer service, yes - it is also much more, it is the Sacrifice at Calvary made Real all over again.
Our Lord becomes Present, Body and Blood, in the highest form of Worship. In most protestant forms, the highest form of worship is prayer, in the Holy Mass the Ultimate Sacrifice is made real again and again and those of us in a State of Grace partake of His Flesh and Blood as He commanded.
Ya'll don't seem to be on the same page.
And this RC poster was pretty aggressive in their posts.
Some ambiguity might arise with the phrase "made real again and again." You might want to ask this FReeper whether he means "We are brought into the one, real, eternal sacrifice of Christ again and again" *OR* that Christ is "slain multiple times," again and again. I would bet my right arm up to my elbow, this FReeper, choosing between the two, would say "yes" to the former and "no" to the latter.
The Mass is described by the Church as a "bloodless" sacrifice, by which we do not mean that no Blood is present (what is present after the Consecration is His Blood) but precisely that this sacrifice does not involve killing Him again.
That's why I advise you, when there is an ambiguity or an apparent contradiction, to ask the person what he means. It prevents many an awkward error.
Yes, and as we have shown from Scripture, there is NO forgiveness of sins without blood being shed. Hence, there is no forgiveness of sins by participating in the Mass.
I offer yet again the words of a Doctor of the Roman Catholic church (Ligouri):
The dignity of the priest is also estimated from the power that he has over the real and the mystic body of Jesus Christ.
With regard to the power of priests over the real body of Jesus Christ, it is of faith that when they pronounce the words of consecration the Incarnate Word has obliged himself to obey and to come into their hands under the sacramental species. We are struck with wonder when we hear that God obeyed the voice of Josue The Lord obeying the voice of man 1 and made the sun stand when he said move not, O su/i, towards Gabaon, . . . and the sun stood still? But our wonder should be far greater when we find that in obedience to the words of his priests Hoc EST CORPUS MEUM
God himself descends on the altar,
that he comes wherever they call him,
and as often as they call him,
and places himself in their hands, even though they should be his enemies.
And after having come, he remains, entirely at their disposal; they move him as they please, from one place to another; they may, if they wish, shut him up in the tabernacle, or expose him on the altar, or carry him outside the church; they may, if they choose, eat his flesh, and give him for the food of others.
*********
I also repost this from O'Brien:
The Council of Trent thus summarizes the Church's teaching concerning the Mass:
1. There is in the Catholic Church a true Sacrifice, instituted by Jesus Christ-the Sacrifice of His Body and Blood under the appearances of bread and wine.
2. This Sacrifice is identical with the Sacrifice of the Cross, inasmuch as Jesus Christ is Priest and Victim in both; the only difference lies in the manner of offering, which is bloody upon the Cross and bloodless on our altars.
3. It is a propitiatory Sacrifice, atoning for our sins, and the sins of the living and the dead in Christ, for whom it is offered.
O'Brien,(p.366)
***********************
I post these again as it certainly seems that you are not in agreement with either the Doctors or priests of your denomination.
They are saying something quite different than you.
It is interesting to note however, the eternal Son of God is seemingly just moved around like a piece of furniture in Roman Catholicism and they can with Him as they please.
That is no where evidenced in Scripture.....Roman Catholicism perhaps, but not Scripture.
You noted in the non-RC service you attended that it was very reverent and respectful which I agree with.
When I partake of the Lord's Supper, I am reminded,(do this in remembrance of Me) of the awesome sacrifice He made on my behalf.
It is a very sobering reminder of what He did for me as undeserving as I am.
Sandals, dust, leave it as a witness
An extraordinary sentence.
Not biblical in any sense.
No mass in Scripture.
No altars for Christian participation in the Lord's Supper in Scripture.
No "real blood and flesh" present.
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