Posted on 11/05/2016 7:52:44 PM PDT by CorporateStepsister
I'm interested in debating if whether or not Judas and Pontius Pilate ended up in Hell. Despite being considered the most evil men in hisotry, since they were doing God's will in causing Christ to be crucified, surely they would in fact be looked on with favor by God and not condemned to Hell for eternity.
Not disputing what you said. But interesting that you postulate it was Pilate.
No record, such as in Acts, of Pilate’s coming to Jesus, like Paul on the Road to Damascus. Or he death.
I’m not postulating anything. I’m merely stating the facts as we know them.
- there were a very limited number of parties that could have related the details of that conversation. In fact the only two we know of for certain were Pilate and Christ. We might postulate, or assume an official like Pilate would not be alone with a prisoner without a guard or two. We can also speculate that given the sensitivity of the situation, Pilate may have had a close adviser or two more familiar with the local situation, customs etc.
- We do know that no Jew would have entered the palace.
- We know that somebody privy to that conversation found it worth remembering and memoriaizing in such a way that it found its way to the author of John’s Gospel. This party would not have been hostile to the Christian movement lest the account would have been buried.
Granted, everything beyond that is speculation, but somebody in that very limited audience of people found the exchange to be profound and worthy of recording for the ages.
Not arguing with you.
But Someone else was there, too. God.
I’m not arguing that God wasn’t present, nor that God didn’t inspire the writing of the Gospels, but unless John 21:24 is a lie, God did not write them.
Except that he moved people though the power of the Holy Spirit.
Yes, of course.
Yes, He moved men to bear witness to the things they had seen and heard...which brings me back to my original question: who witnessed Pilate’s exchange with Christ inside the palace so that it could be recorded for the ages?
And just to clear, ultimately who recorded what was said is of little significance compared to what was actually said. I don’t want to lose sight of that, but I do raise the question merely in light of the subject matter of this thread...
I think you make a good case that Pilate related that info to someone like John, or who related it to John.
Then again, Moses is credited for writing Genesis. He did not witness creation, but recorded the story.
Well thank you. I don’t know if it’s a good case, but it is worthy of speculation :)
I have long thought about the exchanges in John 18 and 19 and have thought about who provided the source material. It is, for my money, one of the best done scenes in Gibson’s, “Passion.” Most people buzz through it reading the subtitles, but there is a moment when Pilate queries Christ and Christ responds in perfect Latin. The look on Pilate’s face is that of one wbo has just been poleaxed. He knows he is supposed to be in complete control of the situation, but there is a moment of concern and doubt that he has already lost control of events. The actor playing Pilate should have received an oscar for that scene alone.
Really? The text seems to imply that his intent was also suicide:
Judges 16:28-30Then Samson called to the Lord and said, Lord God, remember me and strengthen me only this once, O God, so that with this one act of revenge I may pay back the Philistines for my two eyes. And Samson grasped the two middle pillars on which the house rested, and he leaned his weight against them, his right hand on the one and his left hand on the other. Then Samson said, Let me die with the Philistines. He strained with all his might; and the house fell on the lords and all the people who were in it. So those he killed at his death were more than those he had killed during his life.
Jesus was speaking metaphorically. He did ot nail himself to the cross. He accepted that action but did not perform it. You cant sanctify suicide.
Oh? So then you deny that Jesus had the actual authority to lay down his life and take it up again.
Or are you asserting that suicide by cop
isn't really suicide because they didn't pull the trigger but the police did?
But Jesus already answered it:
Matt 16:21-23From that time on, Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and undergo great suffering at the hands of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised.
And Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him, saying, God forbid it, Lord! This must never happen to you.
But he turned and said to Peter, Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; for you are setting your mind not on divine things but on human things.
All suicides are in Hell?
Indeed, but many people find it a more challenging question when they insert themselves into the equation.
I would probably not go that far. It is human nature to mourn. When my wife passed, I knew, deep in my heart that she was bound for glory in the arms of Jesus. That does not mean I didn't (and still do) feel sorrow in her passing. She is missed regardless because of the hole left in my life. I would imagine the same would have happened with his followers. Even if they fully understood what had happened, they would mourn. We mourn for ourselves more than the departed. It seems to be how we're wired, even when we know better.
I was actually thinking about that as I posted. I saw a quote by him at one time that was something to the effect of "I could not ask anyone else to do it. I imagine the experience was intense for him.
Indeed. I too see in the text that his death was premeditated, though was effected to show glory to the Lord.
If one were to take a hard line against suicide in this case, one might similarly cast aspersions upon a soldier who makes the ultimate sacrifice for his brothers that they might survive. I wouldn't feel comfortable judging actions such as that. Again, it's way over my pay grade. The Lord is both Just and Merciful.
It is human nature to mourn. .....Seriously, do you suppose mournfulness is because the death of another close to us reminds us the, the living, of the inevetible death where no one will remember us, never be blessed with ever knowing us we will pass on to oblivion? I think funeral rites only magnify this situation.
Great point.
Interesting that Jesus doesn’t say a word to Herod. But spends much time talking with Pilate.
King David went to the Ark of the Covenant and admitted his sin and took responsibility. He saved himself through that.
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