Posted on 11/05/2016 7:52:44 PM PDT by CorporateStepsister
I'm interested in debating if whether or not Judas and Pontius Pilate ended up in Hell. Despite being considered the most evil men in hisotry, since they were doing God's will in causing Christ to be crucified, surely they would in fact be looked on with favor by God and not condemned to Hell for eternity.
Every time I hear or see this I think to myself: The Amalekites, Midianites, original inhabitants of Jericho and of Ai would all probably have a minority opinion on this statement.
God is God and is to be obeyed.
Jesus said of Judas, “it would have been better if he had not been born.” Well, if Judas is in heaven, then Jesus was wrong. As far a Pontius Pilate, it depends on whether or not he ever truly repented and ask forgiveness of God; and most likely he never did, but I cannot say with certainty on Pilate.
Knowing everything that you know now about exactly who Jesus Christ is, if you somehow had to opportunity to stop Judas from betraying him, would you?
A similar question might be, if you, knowing everything you know today were suddenly transported into the place of one of the Roman soldiers affixing Christ to the cross, would you be willing to personally drive the nails into his wrists or feet?
I've thought about it a bit, and we've had some really interesting discussions in my small group about it. I'd say my answer to the first question would be "no". We learn from the Gospels that Jesus knew who his betrayer was, and told him Himself to be about it. Who am I to question the direction of the Lord?
Similarly, my answer to the second question would have to be, "yes" to the second question because without the sacrifice, there is no death. Without the death, there is no resurrection. Without the resurrection, there is no salvation. Salvation has always been a part of the Lord's plans. So I would do it and ask Him for forgiveness, which I'm quite confident He would give.
The second question also implies another. Was it wrong to crucify Jesus? Discuss this among your friends for lively conversations.
“And don’t forget, Jesus told him he would. Jesus understands.
Gnostics say Jesus needed him to do it.”
“First, it was gods plan that Jesus die in the cross.”
Exactly! If Judas hadn’t done what he did, our salvation wouldn’t have occurred. It might have been someone else, but Jesus knew and understood completely WHY things happened the way that they did. He was able to remain quiet and humble because he knew that the Romans were inadvertently doing Him and mankind the greatest service, bringing about the ultimate salvation of our souls.
I believe that Jesus’ entire life was one of irony and paradox. If His followers had comprehended the reality of His ultimate sacrifice, I am certain that His followers would not have been in lamentation at all. At the same time, go figure, His followers were still halfway in the world of materialism and in the sense of wordiness, Jesus was being degraded. It was the material, physical degradation that they lamented.
Psalms 22 foretold what would take place.
So did Samson, and yet he is mentioned in the "hall of faith" (Heb 11).
For that matter, Jesus said that He Himself died at His own hand:No one takes it [his life] from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.
(John 10:18)
Now, if suicide is always a sin, why would God have given Samson the strength to commit suicide?
How could the Father command Jesus to sin? — The whole point of Jesus's sacrifice is that He was sinless, and that by being sinless He could be the perfect sacrifice.
That is suicide without repentance.
Jesus certainly didn't repent either, He bore all our sin and guilt in His own body and died with it; that is, if He repented of it, our sins could not have been paid.
Asking for forgiveness is the first step in acknowledging not only that we have done wrong but that we are unable to repair it on our own. It is part of the "become as a little child" teaching that I still have trouble with. I want to fix things by myself. But I can't. Only with the help of the Lord and a humble and repentant spirit can I attempt to make amends.
I thought legend had it that Pilate's wife converted then converted him.
Wrong question.
All humans after the Garden of Eden, have been condemned prior to salvation.
We all have an opportunity to come to God by faith in Christ prior to the first death.
Unbelievers upon the first death are sent to Hades, to a place known as the Torments. They remain there until the Final Judgment (Great White Throne Judgment).
At that point in time, 2 books are consulted, the Book of Works and the Book of Life. If their names are blotted out or not there, then they are sent to the Lake of Fire.
The Book of Works refers to works which are righteous by Divine Standards, not by human standards.
Believers, prior to the Cross, were placed in Hades in a place known as Abraham’s Bosom, or Paradise.
Acts records how many believers were seen at the time of the resurrection prior to the Ascension. We know that once the sins of all humanity were judged at the Cross, believers were know eligible to be placed in heaven, though they have not yet faced the bema seat for their eternal crowns.
Judas was hung and he was split from throat to groin. That does not happen in a suicide. IMO, he repented when he took the silver coins and threw them, repenting of his deeds. It is not my place to say what his eternity will be like, it is not clear to me.
BTW, your query or debate topic elicits a fundamental response.
Who cares?
The issue is for God to judge and no other.
This takes us back to the Garden of Eden.
The reason why we might be concerned, in part, is because Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil.
All humans now have the ability to discern good and evil.
Unfortunately, such knowledge tempts us into looking at good and evil instead of thinking through faith in Christ and what He provides.
Death is a state of existence involving separation. When we shift our thinking away from through faith in Christ, we separate ourselves from God. This is not in His Plan. It is a type of sin. We miss the mark of His Plan, when we attempt to substitute our knowledge of good and evil for His Providence.
The more fundamental question to ask, would be, “what is His Plan for us?” We find that out by studying His Word and remaining in fellowship with Him. He will place us where He wants us at the right time. We simply must exercise volition in the right way, at the right time, and right place to perform the works He has predestined to be performed by His Plan.
No such thing as purgatory.
Sets up a quandary; did Judas have free will? Was Judas destined to betray Jesus to fulfill prophesy? If so, do we have free will?
I'm not so certain about that. In John 18, Pilate has Christ brougbt into the palace, away from the jeering crowd, where Pilate had what is commonly referred to as an interrogation, but reads more like an intimate theological debate. John documents their exchange in the kind of excruciating detail that could have only been known to somebody who was present. So ask yourself, who wrote it down?
Presumably the only persons present where Christ, Pilate, and perhaps a small handful of guards and advisors. One of them recorded the exchange with the specificity that could only have been known to somebody present, and found cause to relate that account to the author of the Gospel.
Samson died as a consequence of the act of bringing down the temple. His intent was not suicide. In the same way an operation that kills an unborn baby that is actually necessary to save the life of the mother is not murder.
Jesus was speaking metaphorically. He did ot nail himself to the cross. He accepted that action but did not perform it. You can’t sanctify suicide. Even Pope Francis doesn’t go that far into heresy.
Also to say that I think that these exercises may be interesting and be great tools for learning more by delving into the Bible and other works, we cannot decide that which He ha snot revealed to us.
knarf: Old and New Covenants have different "standards".
King David committed adultery and had the inconvenient husband put into position to assure he was killed - yet the Bible tells us he died sinless and resides in Heaven - his punishment was the loss of his son, who also resides in Heaven because God decided he had to die to punish David.
IOW - it was/is in God's hands and He knows while we won't until we reach heaven ourselves.
Guess you won’t know for sure until you get there.
I don’t think so. Their participation was quite different. Pilate actually tried to release Jesus, saying something like “what evil has this man done?”, with the Jews replying crucify him. It was a custom on the passover for one to be released, and the Jews chose Barabbas over Jesus, Pilate was a somewhat passive participant, although the result was the same.
Jesus said of Judas, ‘it would have been better had he never been born’, so having Jesus say that about you is not a good thing.
That said, it is not for us to decide, it’s up to one much greater than us.
Your post reminds me of Mel Gibson’s The Passion. Mel makes no cameo appearance in it except for a shot of his hands driving a nail into Jesus on the cross. I know Mel fell a great deal here on this forum when his antisemitic attitudes became known but clearly he felt this shot was meant to show it was he a sinner who ultimately was the cause of the passion of Christ.
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